Jump to content





Photo
- - - - -

Enabling Closer games as opposed to tryfest blowouts


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
108 replies to this topic

#61 Manx RL

Manx RL
  • Coach
  • 1,371 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:50 PM

http://www.rugbyleag...esults1990.html

Choose your weapon!
- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

#62 shaun mc

shaun mc
  • Coach
  • 1,892 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:54 PM

More points are being scored in RL games - ok, ok I need some facts, but I don't recall 42-40, or 62-18, or 36-40 in the 70's, 80's or 90's
One season isn't enough of a sample, my guess is that there will be a trend line upwards in the points per game average.
If that points per game average is trending upwards, then the blowouts are going to be of a bigger margin as well, on average.

#63 Manx RL

Manx RL
  • Coach
  • 1,371 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 08:54 PM

http://dazrl.awardsp...nfo/h_rules.htm

Choose your excuse!
- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

#64 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,388 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:51 PM

And all from different seasons, some of which were more recent! Certainly not from the season you used as a reference. Within a single season blowouts were pretty rare until the 10m rule was brought in.

That was under the 5m rule, all from one season, 1990/91, all from division one clashes.

When are you going to give up?

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#65 Ant

Ant
  • Coach
  • 3,224 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:53 PM

More points are being scored in RL games - ok, ok I need some facts, but I don't recall 42-40, or 62-18, or 36-40 in the 70's, 80's or 90's
One season isn't enough of a sample, my guess is that there will be a trend line upwards in the points per game average.
If that points per game average is trending upwards, then the blowouts are going to be of a bigger margin as well, on average.


apart from the facts prove you pretty much wrong.

#66 shaun mc

shaun mc
  • Coach
  • 1,892 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 09:57 PM

Does this prove anything other than the points per game has increased :

Season pts/game 1983/84 37.36 1984/85 39.13 1985/86 35.05 1986/87 38.93 1987/88 37.88 1988/89 37.97 1989/90 42.07 1990/91 38.70 1991/92 37.42 1992/93 38.91 1993/94 41.16 1994/95 45.89 1995/96 50.05 1996 55.79 1997 46.70 1998 43.63 1999 46.00 2000 49.49 2001 52.43 2002 49.67 2003 48.21 2004 50.06 2005 55.40 2006 49.10 2007 46.05 2008 49.48 2009 45.97 2010 48.00 2011 49.67 2012 53.12

Under the 4 point try i.e the seasons above, the points per game jumped by about 8 points from 29 ppg to 37 ppg

Edited by shaun mc, 07 December 2012 - 09:58 PM.


#67 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,831 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:20 PM

That was under the 5m rule, all from one season, 1990/91, all from division one clashes.

When are you going to give up?


Had forgotten that Rochdale went up around then so apologies for my oversight. Nevertheless only 8 games in the season you quoted showed a result where the winning team scored 50pts or more (I think div 1 also had 16 teams too and P&R!). Contrast that with last year in SL where there were 21 games where the winning club scored 50pts or more. I think this does show that points are piled on easier nowadays. However, what I would like to know is how the average winning margin in the top tier has changed since 1980, as I acknowledge that a simple glance at how high the winning score is, is actually too simplistic. If I get some time I'd like to analyse this in a spreadsheet for say 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2012

I've never seen the average winning margin statistic mentioned, though it is a very important indicator of how naibiting matches are



#68 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,831 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:28 PM

Does this prove anything other than the points per game has increased :

Season pts/game 1983/84 37.36 1984/85 39.13 1985/86 35.05 1986/87 38.93 1987/88 37.88 1988/89 37.97 1989/90 42.07 1990/91 38.70 1991/92 37.42 1992/93 38.91 1993/94 41.16 1994/95 45.89 1995/96 50.05 1996 55.79 1997 46.70 1998 43.63 1999 46.00 2000 49.49 2001 52.43 2002 49.67 2003 48.21 2004 50.06 2005 55.40 2006 49.10 2007 46.05 2008 49.48 2009 45.97 2010 48.00 2011 49.67 2012 53.12

Under the 4 point try i.e the seasons above, the points per game jumped by about 8 points from 29 ppg to 37 ppg


I think it does show how less cherished each try is becoming. There seems to be a general significant increase after the 10m rule came in. However a more useful statistic is the average winning margin in the top tier.

#69 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,388 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:38 PM

More points are being scored in RL games - ok, ok I need some facts, but I don't recall 42-40, or 62-18, or 36-40 in the 70's, 80's or 90's
One season isn't enough of a sample, my guess is that there will be a trend line upwards in the points per game average.
If that points per game average is trending upwards, then the blowouts are going to be of a bigger margin as well, on average.


How about:

1 Year all in the first division and I probably didn't get them all as I was losing the will.

72-12 Bradford v Hunslet
44- 16 Bradford v Leigh
18-42 Bradford v Hull KR
32- 0 Castleford v Leigh
42-19 Featherstone v Hunslet
40-12 Halifax v Workington
12-44 Widnes v Halifax
46-22 Hull v Saints
30-33 Hull v Leigh
64-18 Hull v Workington
46-0 Hull KR v Featherstone
40-18 Hull KR v Barrow
42 -14 Hull KR v Hunslet
19-42 Hunslet v Featherstone
7-68 Hunslet v Saints
26-58 Hunslet v Hull
8-50 Hunslet v Leeds
16-48 Hunslet v Wigan
16-48 Hunslet v Warrington
40-41 Hunslet v Barrow
43-10 Leeds v Widnes
44-14 Leigh v Hunslet
44-12 Leigh v Workington
44-2 Oldham v Workington
44-8 Oldham v Barrow
46-18 Oldham v Hunslet
44-6 Oldham v Workington
62-0 Saints v Workington
56-16 Saints v Leigh
59-2 saints v Barrow
48-16 Saints v Leeds
52-6 Wigan v Workington

84/85 is the season.

Edited by Padge, 07 December 2012 - 10:46 PM.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#70 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,388 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:49 PM

Had forgotten that Rochdale went up around then so apologies for my oversight. Nevertheless only 8 games in the season you quoted showed a result where the winning team scored 50pts or more (I think div 1 also had 16 teams too and P&R!). Contrast that with last year in SL where there were 21 games where the winning club scored 50pts or more. I think this does show that points are piled on easier nowadays. However, what I would like to know is how the average winning margin in the top tier has changed since 1980, as I acknowledge that a simple glance at how high the winning score is, is actually too simplistic. If I get some time I'd like to analyse this in a spreadsheet for say 1980, 1990, 2000 and 2012

I've never seen the average winning margin statistic mentioned, though it is a very important indicator of how naibiting matches are


You are once again changing your original point as it dawns on you that your original assertion was completely wrong.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#71 shaun mc

shaun mc
  • Coach
  • 1,892 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

The Hull 64-18 v Workington - Town were instructed by the RFL to play 3 games in 4 days due to a fixture backlog. My father spoke to some players after this game and they could barely move during the game (evidently).
9 games where the winner scored 50 points plus. 20 games of a 30 points or more winning margin. That is the bar now to be measured against.

Apologies for my lack of a table in the previous points per game post - Excel and Mac's or I haven't used or learnt tables in a post before

#72 EdinburghExile

EdinburghExile
  • Coach
  • 614 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:55 PM

Right, I got a bit of spare time so I put this together: Average margin per game in a selection of divisions:

Posted Image

It appears to me that averages went up in the NRL but have dropped again - the same relative improvement in defence has not yet occurred in Super League. Either that, or it illustrates that the weaker teams don't cope so well, and those weaker teams don't exist in the NRL.

I could do a more comprehensive analysis at some point, these are just years picked without much consideration for outliers.

Another thing to look at - lower division scores only spread out a few years after the league was split in two. Similar timing to the increase in professionalism in the 80s?

As they say, pick the bones out of that.

Edited by EdinburghExile, 07 December 2012 - 11:00 PM.


#73 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,388 posts

Posted 07 December 2012 - 10:57 PM

The Hull 64-18 v Workington - Town were instructed by the RFL to play 3 games in 4 days due to a fixture backlog. My father spoke to some players after this game and they could barely move during the game (evidently).
9 games where the winner scored 50 points plus. 20 games of a 30 points or more winning margin. That is the bar now to be measured against.

Apologies for my lack of a table in the previous points per game post - Excel and Mac's or I haven't used or learnt tables in a post before

And in 90/91 Wigan had to play how many games in 10 days to win the league?

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#74 Cake Tiger

Cake Tiger
  • Coach
  • 736 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:38 AM

Right, I got a bit of spare time so I put this together: Average margin per game in a selection of divisions:

Posted Image

It appears to me that averages went up in the NRL but have dropped again - the same relative improvement in defence has not yet occurred in Super League. Either that, or it illustrates that the weaker teams don't cope so well, and those weaker teams don't exist in the NRL.

I could do a more comprehensive analysis at some point, these are just years picked without much consideration for outliers.

Another thing to look at - lower division scores only spread out a few years after the league was split in two. Similar timing to the increase in professionalism in the 80s?

As they say, pick the bones out of that.


Nice work. I appreciate it's a selection of years but it shows the general trend is that the average margin of victory has increased over the years in England. It's a good indication that the contests are not as close now. The only way we can compete with the Aussies at international level is to increase the intensity of the matches in SL. There are still too many easy games in SL.

#75 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,388 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:53 AM

Nice work. I appreciate it's a selection of years but it shows the general trend is that the average margin of victory has increased over the years in England. It's a good indication that the contests are not as close now. The only way we can compete with the Aussies at international level is to increase the intensity of the matches in SL. There are still too many easy games in SL.

The problem is that it isn't actually anything to do with the OP, which was we don't see narrow margins any more (proven wrong) and we never used to get blow outs before (proven wrong), we are now on a different idea, are score margins widening.

Lobby will now jump in and say this is what he meant all along.

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#76 Cake Tiger

Cake Tiger
  • Coach
  • 736 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:05 AM

The problem is that it isn't actually anything to do with the OP, which was we don't see narrow margins any more (proven wrong) and we never used to get blow outs before (proven wrong), we are now on a different idea, are score margins widening.

Lobby will now jump in and say this is what he meant all along.


It's not a huge leap from where the OP started to say that the margins in games today are, on the whole, higher than the 1980s.

I had a look at the NFL results for last week. They have 32 teams and the average margin of victory last week was 7.56 - a little over one touchdown with an extra point. One of the beauties of the NFL is that any team can beat any other in a given week - it is similar in the NRL.

Personally, I think we should be looking at getting closer games (high scoring or not). How that is achieved is probably better discussed in a new thread. The starting point would be to reduce the teams in the top division - we don't have the player pool in England to match Australia.

#77 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,831 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 08:36 AM

The problem is that it isn't actually anything to do with the OP, which was we don't see narrow margins any more (proven wrong) and we never used to get blow outs before (proven wrong), we are now on a different idea, are score margins widening.

Lobby will now jump in and say this is what he meant all along.


This was what I meant all along!

Being serious though, I'm not trying to score points and probably didnt make my original intended point clear anyway and yes, we also had some big wins in earlier days as you correctly pointed out. However there is a clear trend to larger score margins and larger scores. I dont think this is good for the game and we need to look at amending the rules, perhaps a shorter defensive 7m retreat and less substitutions. I personally think the game would be more enjoyable to play as well especially at lower levels. I dont classify running 10m back and forth as a core rugby skill anyway, as it is a recent "invention" to RL. I would happily trade open-ness for closer games and less, but more cherished tries.

#78 shaun mc

shaun mc
  • Coach
  • 1,892 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:08 AM

And in 90/91 Wigan had to play how many games in 10 days to win the league?


5 games in 10 days - 4th, 7th, 9th, 11th and 13th of April. At least hey had a rest between games!
Town played 17th, 19th & 20th of April and 5 games in 9 days. :P

#79 petero

petero
  • Coach
  • 2,833 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

nope. Maybe a 5 yard rule, though. As that is less than 5 metres, then surely that would be even better.


Don't believe that the skit intended there worked, not at all. After all the lesser distance amounting to some 16 and 7/8ths inches (possibly only a mere fifth of a running stride) would offer little advantage to anyone, were yards to be re-implemented, would it?

I have to agree with the fact that there are more and more instances these days, of blow-out games evident and, that they are not that good to watch mostly.

I also would disagree that the half-backs and to some degree hookers (although with some very notable exceptions) are no more skilful than they are today for quite simply they had to be.

Nor can I swallow the jibe concerning forwards all being faster, Huddart, Rose, Martyn, Cherrington, Lyons, Reilly, and many more I could mention would match any present day forward for pace and, graft in defence as well.

The incidental fans that Barrow/Kid refers to can I would say, thrill to the sort of onion game that is provided by the Barbarians and other such, so-called exhibition games. These games do provide a form of entertainment granted, but that is when no league points are at stake and can be played in an attitude of 'nothings at stake so what does it matter'. Surely that cannot be related to matches that matter and can have a bearing on an entire season's endeavours, should they happen in one sides favour all too often.
When wigan in the 80s could be relied upon to steam roller all the others it became very tedious for others, other than Wigan's fans.

#80 petero

petero
  • Coach
  • 2,833 posts

Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:08 PM

Is Lobby suggesting any winning margin greater than 6 points is a blowout? Exciting games are usually close scorelines or one where a team losing by several scores makes a comback. The issue was raised before (I believe Lobby was the OP in that case) with the notion that blowouts are becoming incereasignly common place but over the last 5 seasons there has been no real increase.


In defence of the OP here I would contest that he stated categorically in any manner that a game with a winning margin exceeding 6 points was to be considered a 'blow-out'.

And furthermore, Dave T, you are correct in stating that a margin of 12-18 points is nowhere close to being a walk over for one side. As I suspect you know, the margins that Lobby was referring to are the 50s, 60s and more, which I too believe have become more frequent.