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Enabling Closer games as opposed to tryfest blowouts


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#81 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

In defence of the OP here I would contest that he stated categorically in any manner that a game with a winning margin exceeding 6 points was to be considered a 'blow-out'.

And furthermore, Dave T, you are correct in stating that a margin of 12-18 points is nowhere close to being a walk over for one side. As I suspect you know, the margins that Lobby was referring to are the 50s, 60s and more, which I too believe have become more frequent.


Just checked my original post where I did indeed refer to less games being within a converted try - however I did not categorically state that a score exceeding 6pts was a blowout. The two points were separate, i.e:

1/ there are less games equal or within a converted try
2/ there are more games where the margin is high (i.e. the score margins are higher).

I'm guessing that the higher score margins in more recent years correlates with lower results with scores of equal to or less than one converted try - though this may not hold true. Dont suppose Exile or anyone has the equivalent stats comparing say 1980, 1990 and 2011 in terms of the number of top tier games per season where the score margin was one converted try or less????

Edited by Lobbygobbler, 08 December 2012 - 01:31 PM.


#82 Dave T

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:17 PM

In defence of the OP here I would contest that he stated categorically in any manner that a game with a winning margin exceeding 6 points was to be considered a 'blow-out'.

And furthermore, Dave T, you are correct in stating that a margin of 12-18 points is nowhere close to being a walk over for one side. As I suspect you know, the margins that Lobby was referring to are the 50s, 60s and more, which I too believe have become more frequent.

the problem petero is the way Lobby repeatedly launches this thread over and over. By using the 6pt marker in his op he left himself open. This potentially could be an interesting debate. The facts are there - higher averag points per game.
Whether that is due to the 10m rule, the move to summer, a weakening of lower teams or some of the other relatively minor rule changes which all seem to have favoured tge attack, im not sure and that would be an interesting debate. Unfortunately Lobby doesnt tee the thread up so well.

#83 Ant

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:45 PM

So in the entire course of Super League the average winning margin has increased by less than a single converted try?

Yeah, that's a spike in "blow outs"

#84 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 02:55 PM

So in the entire course of Super League the average winning margin has increased by less than a single converted try?

Yeah, that's a spike in "blow outs"


We are talking about comparisons with pre-SL though.

#85 Ant

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:08 PM

So winter rugby, barely professional, played on pitches like cabbage patches and a game dying on its backside?

Vs

Summer rugby, Fully professional, modern stadia with billiard table pitches and a game as well supported and richer than its ever been.

Yeah
That's a comparison right there

The pure and simple fact is there IS NOT. A dramatic increase in blow outs, more points are scored but that can be simply explained in the comparison above


Edited by Ant, 08 December 2012 - 03:09 PM.


#86 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 03:49 PM

So winter rugby, barely professional, played on pitches like cabbage patches and a game dying on its backside?

Vs

Summer rugby, Fully professional, modern stadia with billiard table pitches and a game as well supported and richer than its ever been.

Yeah
That's a comparison right there

The pure and simple fact is there IS NOT. A dramatic increase in blow outs, more points are scored but that can be simply explained in the comparison above


I would say that 21 games with the winning team scoring over 50 pts compared to 8, was a dramatic increase. Also the winning margins are increasing significantly from the trend I saw. This is alarming. The scorelines should be getting closer not the opposite. I can see why you didnt like preSL though - being a Huddersfield fan....

#87 Ant

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

You just dont know when you're beaten do you?

Or, since you brought it up, is the real reason you dislike Super League that you're a Leigh fan and so will never see your team in the top flight again?

#88 JohnM

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 09:50 PM

Don't think that really is the case. It seems to to be a sort of ossification. A conservatism, that things were better before...that there was some sort of post war golden era when fans flocked to highly competiitve games, full houses and an easy camerarderie, town centre stadiums, people living within walking distance of grounds, players stonger, tougher before all this modern day tinkering with stuctures, rules, finances. Plus a refusal to see the game in a 21st century context...and all at the same time as denying it.

#89 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:39 PM

Don't think that really is the case. It seems to to be a sort of ossification. A conservatism, that things were better before...that there was some sort of post war golden era when fans flocked to highly competiitve games, full houses and an easy camerarderie, town centre stadiums, people living within walking distance of grounds, players stonger, tougher before all this modern day tinkering with stuctures, rules, finances. Plus a refusal to see the game in a 21st century context...and all at the same time as denying it.


Well the stats that Exile presented show that score margins are increasing.

When I watched the game in the 80's there were not many same-league games where over 50points were scored by a winning team. Now they are much more ubiquitous.

Sometimes I do get the feeling that certain people on here feel that everything RL does is right, and that anyone who challenges this is a heretic.

#90 Padge

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:45 PM

When I watched the game in the 80's there were not many same-league games where over 50points were scored by a winning team. Now they are much more ubiquitous.

Well post something that actually proves it, A straight challenge, you are making a claim back it up.

I could say Friday games have produced more injuries. Would you just believe me because that's what I have posted.

Sometimes I do get the feeling that certain people on here feel that everything RL does is right, and that anyone who challenges this is a heretic.

No, some people like claims made to be backed up by a little bit of evidence, every claim you make has no backing and is more often than not shown to be wrong when a simple bit of research is done to look at your claim.

Give us the proof Lobby.

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#91 thundergaz

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:52 PM

I'm not getting into this argument but I preferred watching rugby when the likes of Edwards, Hanley,bottica, schofield, offiah, newlove etc were playing IMO they were greats have we got any greats today? If so I haven't seen one. But hey that's just my opinion.

#92 Padge

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 10:58 PM

I'm not getting into this argument but I preferred watching rugby when the likes of Edwards, Hanley,bottica, schofield, offiah, newlove etc were playing IMO they were greats have we got any greats today? If so I haven't seen one. But hey that's just my opinion.

Strangely my grandad had his hero's and thought my dad's heroes were rubbish in comparison.

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#93 shaun mc

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:09 PM

This thread has indicated

1. that the number of points scored in the top division of RL has increased
2. the sample of data provided by E Exile indicates that the winning margins have also increased (his sample may not be enough data to be 100% relied upon but its what we have at the moment) but his sample isn't small enough to dismiss it.

Logic would indicate that there are more games with a wider score between the winners and losers, unless there is a big increase in games that are 30-22 or 36-24 or 30-38

#94 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:37 PM

Well post something that actually proves it, A straight challenge, you are making a claim back it up.

I could say Friday games have produced more injuries. Would you just believe me because that's what I have posted.


No, some people like claims made to be backed up by a little bit of evidence, every claim you make has no backing and is more often than not shown to be wrong when a simple bit of research is done to look at your claim.

Give us the proof Lobby.


Erm, my link to last years SL results which showed 21 results where the winning team scored 50pts or more?

#95 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:48 PM

Strangely my grandad had his hero's and thought my dad's heroes were rubbish in comparison.


Joe Egan vs Jim Sullivan?

#96 Padge

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 11:55 PM

Joe Egan vs Jim Sullivan?

That's the sort of thing you are up against.

Nobody will beat the hero of your youth, young and you are in awe of your hero without understanding a great deal of what's going really. Older and wiser you can spot flawes in peoples game, but your hero had none, well you didn't see any, but these young upstarts are getting it all wrong.

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#97 Padge

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 05:44 PM

Just noticed that in April 1994 Leeds and Sheffield drew a game 46 - 46 and in the same month Leeds lost 68 - 0 to Saints

Edited by Padge, 09 December 2012 - 05:46 PM.


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#98 EdinburghExile

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Posted 09 December 2012 - 10:18 PM

This thread has indicated

1. that the number of points scored in the top division of RL has increased
2. the sample of data provided by E Exile indicates that the winning margins have also increased (his sample may not be enough data to be 100% relied upon but its what we have at the moment) but his sample isn't small enough to dismiss it.

Logic would indicate that there are more games with a wider score between the winners and losers, unless there is a big increase in games that are 30-22 or 36-24 or 30-38


When I'm more in the mood I'll fill the gaps where I can - I just need to write a bit of code to drag the data from Excel more quickly. Might also look at points per game.

Edited by EdinburghExile, 09 December 2012 - 10:19 PM.


#99 Dave T

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

Just noticed that in April 1994 Leeds and Sheffield drew a game 46 - 46 and in the same month Leeds lost 68 - 0 to Saints

wasnt that after the 10m rule had been introduced though?

#100 Ant

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 01:14 PM

So basically the rule intended to open the game up more worked?

Seems fair.

They never should have taken two men off the scrum then we would have proper close games and hardly any tries




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