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Salford Trouble/Salford Takeover


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#221 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

Whats mind numbingly boring is your wishful thinking that RL can push and promote itself to such an extent it will turn everyone on and people will take the game up and watch the game and championship clubs will grow and flower into professional clubs etc etc etc.

Get a history of RL book and read the reality of the games struggles from day one to today. 126 years of struggle with another 126 to come.

As for YOU saying London junior RL is a "success story" my word how you can do an about turn and a back flip if it suits you?

The south east is a massive area such that we may just be able to sustain a junior RL big enough to feed a superleague club.

Whilst that is a success for us, what we will achieve is miniscule against what Soccer and RU achieve in London.

You know full well we are not a success in London but we have found enough interest across a very big place to make having an SL club there worthwhile.A success relative to our size.

All this "can be done" nada nada nada isn't debate. It's fantasy Rugby League.

Please can we have an additional forum on here for the fantasists??

Lets go into business together, I can formulate a sensible and realistic business plan for us whilst you close your eyes and dream we'll be marks and spencers.


After all your ranting, the fact remains London went from nothing to producing juniors from numerous RL teams in the face of an overwhelming soccer presence. I don't know where you get the idea from that I don't acknowledge the tremendous success, and it is a success even though it dosn't suit you to acknowledge that after lauding it the heavens in numerous other threads. I have always agreed with the tremendous growth of RL in London. The dispute I have with you is that that growth is as a result of London Broncos presence even though it is not anywhere near their base of operations.

So, if it can be done in London, the post stating that there is potential to develop RL In Wythenshaw, which wasn't me as I am not even sure where Wythenshaw is, cannot be just rubbished as being impratctical and un doable. The evidence is many parts of the UK is that it can be done. If it can be done in London, Wales and the midlands, why cannot it not be done in a suburb of Manchester.

Furthermore, don't lecture me on RL history. I have read practically every book there is to read and am well versed in it. I am aware that the game has had to struggle. It would probably be a struggle to develop the game in Wythenshaw. It dosn't mean it can't be done.

As for going into business with you, I don't think so. Your idea of taking a risk to move the business forward would probably only go as far as opening the shutters fearing robbery when it was done. We come from different philosphies altogether, you and I.

#222 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:48 AM

1. The SL clubs struggle because they have to pay £1.6M wages and turn over £4M+ with only £1.2M of SKY money subsidy.

2. The CC clubs struggle because they have to pay £300K wages and turn over £1M.

Business wise it's a bigger struggle to find the money for Superleague.

The lower down the leagues you go the easier it is to survive.

Somehow championship clubs are worse at surviving than SL clubs.

But let's not let the facts get in the way of another dig at Superleague.


1. And the fact that they want to keep spending that amount instead of spending what they can afford has got a large number of them into their present precarious financial status, including Salford.

2. After you have posted at length about no self repecting investor will ever touch CC clubs, even though Fev have proved you colossally wrong, now its easier for CC clubs to survive because they manage their books and SL don't. You change your arguments more often than I change my socks when and as it suits your particular diatribe on any given day.

#223 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:51 AM

SO that's Bradford making up the numbers on half the funding and Salford making up the numbers as well.

Can't wait.


There will be a warm welcome at Cougar Park if you survive and have to drop down.

#224 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:03 PM

And Crusaders were full of legit players?
Its easy to sign a side containing players that have no right to work in the UK.
I hope Salford don't follow that route.


OK they'll have to follow Wakefields route.....

#225 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:04 PM

The absolute farce that was Crusaders


Steady, their children Scorpions and North Wales Crusaders may be listening.

#226 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:11 PM

1. And the fact that they want to keep spending that amount instead of spending what they can afford has got a large number of them into their present precarious financial status, including Salford.

2. After you have posted at length about no self repecting investor will ever touch CC clubs, even though Fev have proved you colossally wrong, now its easier for CC clubs to survive because they manage their books and SL don't.


1. the point is ALL clubs have that tendency to spend what they cannot afford, usually because if they don't do that they can end up going the other way something I have suggested many many times with Fax as a great example and Bulls too when crowds nearly halved. If clubs cut costs the crowds don't come.

It's very very simple but "whoooosh" over your head because it doesn't suit.

You single out SL clubs for a criticism that can be levelled at all club........Bias.

2. Whooosh - Fev lose money every year dontcha know and Fev haven't proved anything but I hope they get their chance to do some old fashioned proving in SL 2015.

Again you single out a loss making CC club as a Paragon of virtue......Bias

Care to dig the hole deeper?

#227 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:31 PM

So, if it can be done in London, the post stating that there is potential to develop RL In Wythenshaw, which wasn't me as I am not even sure where Wythenshaw is, cannot be just rubbished as being impratctical and un doable. The evidence is many parts of the UK is that it can be done. If it can be done in London, Wales and the midlands, why cannot it not be done in a suburb of Manchester.


There's 80,000+ people in Wythenshawe

There's 8,000,000+ people in London.

London is 100 times bigger and so has been able to provide enough interest in the game for some London junior clubs to spring up. There's people who come from RL areas both at home and abroad in London too. London also has a history of RL from when Great Britain played at Chelsea and of course the 1930's London club and SARLA. etc etc. Then of course Fulham stirred interest as did London Broncos etc etc (Yes I know London Broncos has nothing to do with RL at any other level in London and yes you know I think that patently absurd)

Wythenshawe is Sale and RU country with no history of RL but I am sure that if a development officer beavered away long enough he may get a few schools playing I suppose.

You have again dived in without looking at some facts, and realities.

Yes we are very strong RL wise per head of population in places like Leeds (1864) Hull (1865) Wigan (1873) etc but we will never be that strong in any new area like erm "Withenshawe". History has timed us out and soccer rules the roost, and playing rugby is something that has been in decline as the modern world evolves.

Therefore to take the game to new areas we need to develop it across whole areas like London and the south east, South Wales, the North East etc. That's the only way we can get enough resources for a toe hold in new areas.

You may read your history books but you don't seem to have a think about it all, you just dive back at me and declare me wrong, so when it comes to us "going into business together" then in the immortal words of Dragon's Den....

I'm out.

#228 sgorpioncaerdyddrob

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:35 PM

I know it maybe pedantic but the players for Crusaders who were deported had the right visas for when the team played in the SL, just not in the years in NL1& 2
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Cardiff Spartans ARLFC www.pitchero.com/clubs/southcoastspartans

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#229 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:43 PM

1. the point is ALL clubs have that tendency to spend what they cannot afford, usually because if they don't do that they can end up going the other way something I have suggested many many times with Fax as a great example and Bulls too when crowds nearly halved. If clubs cut costs the crowds don't come.

It's very very simple but "whoooosh" over your head because it doesn't suit.

You single out SL clubs for a criticism that can be levelled at all club........Bias.

2. Whooosh - Fev lose money every year dontcha know and Fev haven't proved anything but I hope they get their chance to do some old fashioned proving in SL 2015.


Again you single out a loss making CC club as a Paragon of virtue......Bias

Care to dig the hole deeper?

!
1. Yeah and if they don't cut costs, they end up like the Bulls, Wakefield and Salford. Whoosh.!

2. I didn'y say they didn't make a loss. I said that they have attracted considerable sponsorship even though, according to your claims, no such thing is possible for a CC club as sponsors only consider Sooper Doopwer league clubs when looking to support RL.

3. Chance would be a fine thing for Fev. It might even be next season of Salford can't sort out their mess and Sky still demand a 14 club competiton. It's an ill wind etc etc

#230 Just Browny

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

Not sure where the Wythenshawe debate came from, but the idea that a statistically significant number of people from there don their Barbour jackets and go to watch Sale is hilarious. Totally different worlds.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#231 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:05 PM

There's 80,000+ people in Wythenshawe

There's 8,000,000+ people in London.

London is 100 times bigger and so has been able to provide enough interest in the game for some London junior clubs to spring up. There's people who come from RL areas both at home and abroad in London too. London also has a history of RL from when Great Britain played at Chelsea and of course the 1930's London club and SARLA. etc etc. Then of course Fulham stirred interest as did London Broncos etc etc (Yes I know London Broncos has nothing to do with RL at any other level in London and yes you know I think that patently absurd)

Wythenshawe is Sale and RU country with no history of RL but I am sure that if a development officer beavered away long enough he may get a few schools playing I suppose.

You have again dived in without looking at some facts, and realities.

Yes we are very strong RL wise per head of population in places like Leeds (1864) Hull (1865) Wigan (1873) etc but we will never be that strong in any new area like erm "Withenshawe". History has timed us out and soccer rules the roost, and playing rugby is something that has been in decline as the modern world evolves.

Therefore to take the game to new areas we need to develop it across whole areas like London and the south east, South Wales, the North East etc. That's the only way we can get enough resources for a toe hold in new areas.

You may read your history books but you don't seem to have a think about it all, you just dive back at me and declare me wrong, so when it comes to us "going into business together" then in the immortal words of Dragon's Den....

I'm out.


I didn't propose Wythenshaw. It was another poster who , I would seriously suspect, has more knowledge of the area than me or you. What you propose just files in the face or reality. The evidence is that REL can infiltrate any area of the country and sustain amateur RL, including I would image, Wythenshaw, sale RU or no sale RU. Indeed thr RFL should look at targetting the whole of the Manchester conurbation. It once was fertile ground for RL bjut is regressing seriously.

Coventry were once the pride of English Ru and had a 1st Division soccer club to boot. According to your theories, any chance for RL to grow and develop there had flown the coop years ago. But, hey presto, there are several amateur RL clubs in Coventry, some with juniors, and there will be a CC1 club there next year.

The same goes for Gloucester and Hemel. For goodness sake they are even going to play RL at that holy of holies the Oxford Universty RU ground and pay the players for doing it to boot.

Quoting the fractured and tortuous pre RU ban history of RL in London does not support your argument that RL can only develop in places with a long history of RL. RL has only been a part of the London scene since the 1960's at the very earliest and in any numbers since the 1990s. I might as well claim there is a serious Rl presence in Edinburgh because Wigan, Gateshead and the Magic weekend and Cup final have been played there.

Those people who think they are right all the time are particularly annoying to those of us who are. :D . Seriously though, I have just as much right to contest your opinions if I think you are wrong as you have and continously do, to contest my ideas.

#232 Trojan

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 01:52 PM

Leigh in trouble, Bramley Blackpool and Huyton gone, rochdale and york closed, swinton and hunslet shadows of their former selves. Oldham disaster.

More of the wonderful breathtaking success stories of semi professional Rugby ;)

Bramley, Blackpool Huyton (Runcorn) all shafted by the architect of Super League! It is licensing that's depressing the crowds at sides like Salford. As my friend the Salford fan was saying on Thursday, who's going to turn out and pay good money to watch a meaningless game? A game on which nothing rides?
Since those in favour of lincensing argue that it eliminates risk, lets eliminate it altogether, the RFL could employ a body similar to the old "pools panel" to decide the results of games. We could get rid of the players, the stadiums the lot! Just let Sky charge us to watch the results come in on their network. Problem solved!
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#233 Johnoco

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:15 PM

Doesn't seem like many people were bothering with Runcorn (and variants thereof) regardless of any SL or not.

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#234 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:29 PM

Doesn't seem like many people were bothering with Runcorn (and variants thereof) regardless of any SL or not.


They once pulled in a five figure crowd for a playoff game when they were in Liverpool pre WW11 but it couldn't be sustained. They went to London and got some decent crowds but that couldn't be sustained either. By the time the end came, It was time to go, no ground, no fans, no hope. Now there was a team who would have really benefitted from a feeder team deal playing as say Widnes A in Runcorn or some such arrangement.

#235 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:04 PM

The RFL should look at targetting the whole of the Manchester conurbation. It once was fertile ground for RL bjut is regressing seriously.


Of course they should, this was a job for the proposed merged Manchester club, and post refusal to merge became the task of Salford, if Salford wither what resources will be left to do this, to what purpose????

Why has the area regressed????

Wythenshaw was a red herring.

Edited by The Parksider, 15 December 2012 - 03:05 PM.


#236 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:33 PM

As my friend the Salford fan was saying on Thursday, who's going to turn out and pay good money to watch a meaningless game? A game on which nothing rides?


League express finally dealt with that myth after it was dealt with on here.

#237 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:41 PM

Of course they should, this was a job for the proposed merged Manchester club, and post refusal to merge became the task of Salford, if Salford wither what resources will be left to do this, to what purpose????

Why has the area regressed????

Wythenshaw was a red herring.


It might have been a red herring but it wasn';t thrown by me.

I can tell you how RL in Manchester has regressed. In my lifetime there have been four senior RL teams in Manchester, Broughton/ Belle Vue, Oldham, Salford and Swinton. When I started watching RL in the early 60s, Belle Vue were already gone, having failed to find a suitable ground and having moved far away from their roots in Broughton.

Oldham were a big deal, always in the top part of the league, champions at one point, numerous internationals in their ranks, decent crowds and their own ground at Watersheddings. They could never quite keep up with Wigan and and Saints and they slowly declined even with several periods of success interspersed with the poorer years. They were in several CC semi finals but could never quite make the breakthrough and have never played at Wembley, more's the pity as I think a Cup win would have done wonders for their support. They made the inaugral SL but went bust after the first season ( I think) Although Watersheddings was theirs it needed major work and they sold it to pay their debts but went under anyway. Chris Hamilton resurrected them they went on a trek through Southern Lancashire searching for a ground, losing CC finals with monotonous regularity and gradually losing many of their specatators who had rallied to the cause on their initial reformation. They have gone through several financial crises usually owing the IRS back taxes and being shafted by Oldham Athletic but have survived and are finally showing some small signs of life, having finally moved into their own ground back in Oldham and are hoping to upgrade it and win promotion this coming season. Why did they decline, you ask?. I think they were no different from many of the clubs in the 60s, 70 s, 80s and 90 s in that they were part of the general decline and malaise that affected the whole game. Other teams were in dire straights too but managed to find investors or had better management whereas Oldham didn't and I think their failure to win any major Cup or Championship didn't help their cause either. That is just my take on it and I might be completely wrong.

Swinton were also one of the big clubs. They had a massive, test match sized ground at Station Road and were Div 1 champions twice on the trot in the 1960's averaging around 6,000 per home game. they too had a team full of internationals at that time. Station road was also decaying and needed major improvements and was too big for their crowds in any case. They tried to stay with the elite clubs but, again, as with Oldham, despite several better seasons, gradually declined and eventually sold off the ground to pay debts and moved out of their home town to Bury and have never found a home ground since being currently at Leigh. Once they left Swinton, any residual support melted away. I can't comment on their management but I think it made several big mistakes and there was no investor to bail them out. Hopefully the new proposed ground at Agecroft will come to fruition and they will, at least stay in CC and build their crowds to a decent level.

Salford were the weakest of the lot. They had never been anything since the late 1930's but stayed in the league. I remember going there to watch Keighley in our promotion season of 1962 and Salford were in the bottom four of the second division. They never lost the ground however and Brian Snape and later John Wilkinson put money into the club and they became a big deal glamour club with an all star team, a night club on site and were quite the pin up boys of the league and their crowds refelected that. Somehow they also declined from that pinnacle and had good and bad years but Wilkinson never left them and financed them a lot. They have finally lost their stadium at the Willows on the hope of a resurrection at the City of Salford ground but I think the rent there is a major factor in their present financial crisis with the gates never rising to the 8,000 they needed to make ends meet.

You Ask why though and I am at a loss. The one constant amongst all four teams is that on loss of their grounds they almost went belly up. Not staying near their roots was another factor in the decline of their support also with the exception of Salford. Maybe the inexorable rise of Manchester United from big to mega also impacted on the Manchester RL clubs. I don't know, that just a guess.

Salford are salvageable. They are in SL. They have a new stadium. Maybe the rent can be reduced. Let s hope they find a new investor?

Swinton are worth saving. They have a long and glorious history and I think they could be a decent community focussed CC club if they can get their ground situation sorted.

Oldham is much bigger than Swinton. They are somwhat isolated on the eastern side of Manchester. They have potential in my opinion but have a very long row to hoe before they can realise it.

You ask to what purpose should we try to salvage RL in Manchester. There is still a legacy for the game in the city. we should not let it die. Manchester is a media mecca. the game needs a presence there. I have read post from you before championing the big city concept for the game. Well, they don't come much bigger than Manchester. It's worth fighting for. The game cannot afford the geographical footprint of the still important heartlands to shrink any more. A strong club or two clubs in Manchester with a growing junior development is just as important as London. Does the game have the resources to do this? I don't know but it should take a serious look at the situation. Contraction is never good.

#238 John Rhino

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:18 PM

Excuse my ignorance but did Salford own the Willows when they moved?

Have they now sold it?

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#239 TheMancunianCandidate

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

I don’t understand your post in any practical way whatsoever?



Apologies, I was trying to say that no one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester and also to demonstrate that rugby league isn't about having a prior knowledge of the sport, but athletic ability.

With 3/4 Million people inside the M60, are we honestly saying that it's impossible to find rugby league players from this area?

I read your post about Wythenshawe being 'Sale' Territory. Wythenshawe has almost the same demographic profile of Wigan and Castleford and is a million miles away from a 'typical' Sale fan. A typical Sale fan by the way, earns 44K per year.

I stand by my assertion that no one has ever really tried to develop rugby league in Manchester in a co-ordinated, professional manner. The small amount of uncoordinated development that does happen rapidly bears fruit, which is very encouraging.

#240 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:54 PM

Steady, their children Scorpions and North Wales Crusaders may be listening.


And they'd no doubt agree.




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