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Salford Trouble/Salford Takeover


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#241 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:20 PM

I can tell you how RL in Manchester has regressed. You Ask why though and I am at a loss. The one constant amongst all four teams is that on loss of their grounds they almost went belly up. Not staying near their roots was another factor in the decline of their support also with the exception of Salford. Maybe the inexorable rise of Manchester United from big to mega also impacted on the Manchester RL clubs.

You ask to what purpose should we try to salvage RL in Manchester. There is still a legacy for the game in the city. we should not let it die. Manchester is a media mecca. the game needs a presence there.


See below....

#242 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:25 PM

Apologies, I was trying to say that no one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester in a co-ordinated, professional manner. The small amount of uncoordinated development that does happen rapidly bears fruit, which is very encouraging.


Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

#243 The Parksider

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:23 AM

No one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester


Back to the debate and away from the childish personal stuff...................

You can check out the Salford Rugby League Foundation. As a Superleague club they are expected through their license to try to develop the game in the area and they do target the Manchester conurbation. Red Willow kindly explained the work they do with schools to me and I think you will find they have been into Wythenshawe.

You will also find that in direct competition the Union clubs in Manchester equally have development programmes going and they too have been to Wythenshawe. Which way most kid in Wythenshawe are pulled is most obvious from the District Junior soccer leagues. The vast majority of kids in Wythenshawe are happy with soccer something they will have grown up kicking a ball in the back garden with dad, watching City and United battle it out on telly with dad, and that first united/city shirt he bought them

If Salford Reds end up a championship club this aspect of the club will be lost and Rugby League may continue to be a tiny minority sport upheld by such amateur beacons as Eccles, Mayfield and St.Annes. For the kids there will always be United and City, I was going to say Sale but they too are struggling.

The returns on resources can be scant for RL development,. In my area Leeds United held a soccer camp and about 200 kids came and they played lots of soccer including the girls. Then the Rhinos had a camp of about 40 kids and most were girls doing cheerleading. The lads played touch and pass etc.

Behind the scenes where people don’t always look, Superleague is a vehicle for RL development and it is successful as far as it can be in a minority sport. Going back to Semi-pro would lose all that but obviously would fulfil the personal dreams of some of our old timers on here. Losing Salford would make RL development in Manchester too tough to perhaps contemplate, unless sport England are paying?

Edited by The Parksider, 16 December 2012 - 10:26 AM.


#244 keighley

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:09 PM

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???


I think we should look at the success of London's amateur scene and see if there are any lessons, or game plans there.They went from nothing in an hostile environment to where they are today. There may be some lessons to be learned. Soccer is just massive there but the game has prevailed nevertheless.

I know funding from sport England has been cut but any money available for development officers should fund at least a couple for the whole of Manchester. They seem to have done exceptional work in the rest of the UK in kick starting or restarting RL development.

BARLA used to be visionary and expansionary in their outlook. Can they assist. The amateur teams we do have should be encouraged to run junior teams. There are several in Oldham, several more in Rochdale and at least three I can think of in Salford/Swinton What happened to the Broughton Rangers re incarnation as a junior club to encourage kids in that area,.Is it still functioning.?.

The schools competition has been successful for introducing thousands of children to out game throughout the UK. Is there any way to keep some of these children interested by running summer teams. Maybe we could find some dedicated teachers who would be prepared to help.

As you say, if Salford retain their SL status, they should make a renewed effort to support amateur/junior RL in their catchment area. Player visits to schools, free tickets to their new stadium for children, funding a development officer. They might be able to do a better job in this area if they find a really cashed up saviour. let's hope so.

Even the CC clubs, Swinton if they get back to their town and Oldham should be focal points for the amateur and youth teams in their area and help them with player visits, school visits and the like. I think Keighley run some such scheme and they have no money either.

Parksider, a fully professional SL can do lots of things and can be both a magnet and a catylyst for amateur growth. I don't want it to return to semi pro, but semi pro is preferable to extinction. Fully pro needs to be more stable and not be running into these constant financial meltdowns at numerous different clubs. If they don't plug the leaks, that ship will sink.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject of the re engaging of the Manchester public with out game.

The RFL should have long been looking at the decline of the game in Manchester as a serious problem and addressing it. The amateur game seems to be at a crossroads at the moment and they need to pay some attention or we will contract at that level. They need to put some resources into stabilising and expanding our amateur base including Manchester. Maybe the RLWC will be a huge success and give them some funds to make a start. Just a thought.

These failures can be reversed. When I started playing junior rugby a long time ago, the whole amateur game in the heartlands was down to a small fraction of what it had been and was dying from neglect from the governing body. BARLA, for all their later insularity, were formed and turned the whole amateur scene around, growing the number of teams exponentialy and saved the amateur game and maybe the pro game also in the process.

I think there will always be kids who are attracted to our game if we give them the opprtunity. We will never match soccer in popularity but there are plenty of young kids to work with, just look at our growth in London, where soccer is King.

#245 The Parksider

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 01:27 PM

I think we should look at the success of London's amateur scene and see if there are any lessons, or game plans there.They went from nothing in an hostile environment to where they are today. There may be some lessons to be learned. Soccer is just massive there but the game has prevailed nevertheless.

I know funding from sport England has been cut but any money available for development officers should fund at least a couple for the whole of Manchester. They seem to have done exceptional work in the rest of the UK in kick starting or restarting RL development.

BARLA used to be visionary and expansionary in their outlook. Can they assist. The amateur teams we do have should be encouraged to run junior teams. There are several in Oldham, several more in Rochdale and at least three I can think of in Salford/Swinton What happened to the Broughton Rangers re incarnation as a junior club to encourage kids in that area,.Is it still functioning.?.

The schools competition has been successful for introducing thousands of children to out game throughout the UK. Is there any way to keep some of these children interested by running summer teams. Maybe we could find some dedicated teachers who would be prepared to help.

As you say, if Salford retain their SL status, they should make a renewed effort to support amateur/junior RL in their catchment area. Player visits to schools, free tickets to their new stadium for children, funding a development officer. They might be able to do a better job in this area if they find a really cashed up saviour. let's hope so.

Even the CC clubs, Swinton if they get back to their town and Oldham should be focal points for the amateur and youth teams in their area and help them with player visits, school visits and the like. I think Keighley run some such scheme and they have no money either.

Parksider, a fully professional SL can do lots of things and can be both a magnet and a catylyst for amateur growth. I don't want it to return to semi pro, but semi pro is preferable to extinction. Fully pro needs to be more stable and not be running into these constant financial meltdowns at numerous different clubs. If they don't plug the leaks, that ship will sink.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject of the re engaging of the Manchester public with out game.

The RFL should have long been looking at the decline of the game in Manchester as a serious problem and addressing it. The amateur game seems to be at a crossroads at the moment and they need to pay some attention or we will contract at that level. They need to put some resources into stabilising and expanding our amateur base including Manchester. Maybe the RLWC will be a huge success and give them some funds to make a start. Just a thought.

These failures can be reversed. When I started playing junior rugby a long time ago, the whole amateur game in the heartlands was down to a small fraction of what it had been and was dying from neglect from the governing body. BARLA, for all their later insularity, were formed and turned the whole amateur scene around, growing the number of teams exponentialy and saved the amateur game and maybe the pro game also in the process.

I think there will always be kids who are attracted to our game if we give them the opprtunity. We will never match soccer in popularity but there are plenty of young kids to work with, just look at our growth in London, where soccer is King.


Great post there Mr. K.

Debate nicely back on track, after the thread wreckers interventions :lol:

#246 41hound

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:00 PM

It will be interesting to see what the club have to say at our supporters meeting tomorrow night. I hope they have some plans and also the stance of the RFL towards us if we fail.

My bet is it will be a load of bullish optimism and little of substance. But maybe not. If they ask for fans to start collecting we can be sure the end is nigh :rolleyes: - The fact it is off season is making things a lot worse as there is no income. If there was a home game the supporters trust could ask all our fans to contribute to a fund to re-start the club if it folds - but it is going to be standing outside supermarkets with buckets at this rate.

I think if we don't get some "miracle" buyer next week, the game will be up for us ...

#247 The Parksider

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:14 PM

It will be interesting to see what the club have to say at our supporters meeting tomorrow night. I hope they have some plans and also the stance of the RFL towards us if we fail.

My bet is it will be a load of bullish optimism and little of substance. But maybe not. If they ask for fans to start collecting we can be sure the end is nigh :rolleyes: - The fact it is off season is making things a lot worse as there is no income. If there was a home game the supporters trust could ask all our fans to contribute to a fund to re-start the club if it folds - but it is going to be standing outside supermarkets with buckets at this rate.

I think if we don't get some "miracle" buyer next week, the game will be up for us ...


Are you going? It would be great to know first hand what is said and what you think?

#248 41hound

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 02:20 PM

Are you going? It would be great to know first hand what is said and what you think?


I have to work 1400 to 2200 tomorrow, which is a shame, but as a member of the trust I should get a full report and I will happily share this.

#249 John Rhino

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:16 PM

Excuse my ignorance but did Salford own the Willows when they moved?

Have they now sold it?


???

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#250 41hound

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:40 PM

???


No - it had to be sold and is now demollished. I believe all the money went to plan, build & move to new stadium - it went wrong - council + Peel got it built, but we now have no money or ground and lost cash flow from advertising etc...

WE were told new stadium was requisite for staying in SL - I wish is wasn't so as it has killed us off.

#251 roughyedspud

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 04:56 PM

its not a hard question.....did salford own the williows? and if they did wheres the money from it?

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#252 tonyXIII

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:03 PM

No - it had to be sold and is now demollished. I believe all the money went to plan, build & move to new stadium - it went wrong - council + Peel got it built, but we now have no money or ground and lost cash flow from advertising etc...

WE were told new stadium was requisite for staying in SL - I wish is wasn't so as it has killed us off.


I don't think the saga is as simple as your last sentence suggests. I only have my own suspicions, but I think the rot began about 30 years ago when the club was slow to realise the need for investment. The ground rotted around us and its maintenance ate into the reserves. By the time it was sold, the ownership had already passed out of the club's hands into some kind of holding company. I also heard that the club wasted a lot of money on a series of feasibility studies and plans which never came to fruition. The team couldn't compete in SL, but could hold its own in the leagues before that, because there were weaker sides around.

So, while I don't disagree that the ground requirement for SL eventually killed us off, it was merely the final straw. Where did the money go? Who knows? I can't read balance sheets and track down the ins and outs, so I don't have the answer. My best guess is that The Willows was used as collateral for a loan and so passed into the hands of someone who then made a killing on its sale. Pure speculation, though!

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#253 JohnM

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 05:30 PM

. Can anyone summarise what the current situation is?


Vigorously treading water by the sound of things, as people frantically work on a solution.

#254 John Drake

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 09:58 PM

Several posts removed for off topic personal attacks. Cut it out.

Stay on topic, or stay silent.

If you spot a problem, here or in any other thread, report it, don't respond to it. You just make matters worse.

Thank you.

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#255 Padge

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:26 PM

Oldham were a big deal, always in the top part of the league, champions at one point, numerous internationals in their ranks, decent crowds and their own ground at Watersheddings.



95/95 d1 10th
93/94 d1 13th
92/93 d2 2nd
91/92 d2 3rd
90/91 d1 12th
89/90 d2 3rd
88/89 d1 12th
87/88 d2 1st
86/87 d1 13th
85/86 d1 9th
84/85 d1 5th
83/84 d1 10th
82/83 d1 8th
81/82 d2 1st
80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?

Edited by Padge, 16 December 2012 - 10:27 PM.


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#256 ArmchairRhino

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Posted 16 December 2012 - 10:31 PM

Need I go on?


Yes, you lazy ######. Show us your Rothman's!
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#257 Dave T

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 12:31 AM

95/95 d1 10th
93/94 d1 13th
92/93 d2 2nd
91/92 d2 3rd
90/91 d1 12th
89/90 d2 3rd
88/89 d1 12th
87/88 d2 1st
86/87 d1 13th
85/86 d1 9th
84/85 d1 5th
83/84 d1 10th
82/83 d1 8th
81/82 d2 1st
80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?

stop dealing in facts.

Certain posters here are simply stupid.

#258 keighley

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:15 AM

95/95 d1 10th
93/94 d1 13th
92/93 d2 2nd
91/92 d2 3rd
90/91 d1 12th
89/90 d2 3rd
88/89 d1 12th
87/88 d2 1st
86/87 d1 13th
85/86 d1 9th
84/85 d1 5th
83/84 d1 10th
82/83 d1 8th
81/82 d2 1st
80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?


Yes,clever d##k, you need to go on. I am talkimg about the1950 s and 60s before the decline of he Manchester sides started. That was what I was responding to. In those decades Oldham were a top team. They won the championship, they got to a cup semi final losing 12 to 9 to Hull. They had Ike Southward, Alan Davies Frank Pitchford, Bernard Ganley etc in their team. Prio to that throughout the history of the game they were a top side. The decline started in the 80s and90 s as your brilliantly researced post showed. If you read what I wrote which was only an opinion piece anyway you would have picked up on that.

As I said gthey had occasioanal resurgences as when they put Wigan out of the cup but overall the graph was on a downwards curve.

#259 keighley

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:27 AM

stop dealing in facts.

Certain posters here are simply stupid.


Et Tu Brute. See post#263

#260 The Parksider

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:43 AM

I have to work 1400 to 2200 tomorrow, which is a shame, but as a member of the trust I should get a full report and I will happily share this.


Thank you....




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