538 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

As my friend the Salford fan was saying on Thursday, who's going to turn out and pay good money to watch a meaningless game? A game on which nothing rides?

League express finally dealt with that myth after it was dealt with on here.

[keighley]

Of course they should, this was a job for the proposed merged Manchester club, and post refusal to merge became the task of Salford, if Salford wither what resources will be left to do this, to what purpose????

Why has the area regressed????

Wythenshaw was a red herring.

It might have been a red herring but it wasn';t thrown by me.

I can tell you how RL in Manchester has regressed. In my lifetime there have been four senior RL teams in Manchester, Broughton/ Belle Vue, Oldham, Salford and Swinton. When I started watching RL in the early 60s, Belle Vue were already gone, having failed to find a suitable ground and having moved far away from their roots in Broughton.

Oldham were a big deal, always in the top part of the league, champions at one point, numerous internationals in their ranks, decent crowds and their own ground at Watersheddings. They could never quite keep up with Wigan and and Saints and they slowly declined even with several periods of success interspersed with the poorer years. They were in several CC semi finals but could never quite make the breakthrough and have never played at Wembley, more's the pity as I think a Cup win would have done wonders for their support. They made the inaugral SL but went bust after the first season ( I think) Although Watersheddings was theirs it needed major work and they sold it to pay their debts but went under anyway. Chris Hamilton resurrected them they went on a trek through Southern Lancashire searching for a ground, losing CC finals with monotonous regularity and gradually losing many of their specatators who had rallied to the cause on their initial reformation. They have gone through several financial crises usually owing the IRS back taxes and being shafted by Oldham Athletic but have survived and are finally showing some small signs of life, having finally moved into their own ground back in Oldham and are hoping to upgrade it and win promotion this coming season. Why did they decline, you ask?. I think they were no different from many of the clubs in the 60s, 70 s, 80s and 90 s in that they were part of the general decline and malaise that affected the whole game. Other teams were in dire straights too but managed to find investors or had better management whereas Oldham didn't and I think their failure to win any major Cup or Championship didn't help their cause either. That is just my take on it and I might be completely wrong.

Swinton were also one of the big clubs. They had a massive, test match sized ground at Station Road and were Div 1 champions twice on the trot in the 1960's averaging around 6,000 per home game. they too had a team full of internationals at that time. Station road was also decaying and needed major improvements and was too big for their crowds in any case. They tried to stay with the elite clubs but, again, as with Oldham, despite several better seasons, gradually declined and eventually sold off the ground to pay debts and moved out of their home town to Bury and have never found a home ground since being currently at Leigh. Once they left Swinton, any residual support melted away. I can't comment on their management but I think it made several big mistakes and there was no investor to bail them out. Hopefully the new proposed ground at Agecroft will come to fruition and they will, at least stay in CC and build their crowds to a decent level.

Salford were the weakest of the lot. They had never been anything since the late 1930's but stayed in the league. I remember going there to watch Keighley in our promotion season of 1962 and Salford were in the bottom four of the second division. They never lost the ground however and Brian Snape and later John Wilkinson put money into the club and they became a big deal glamour club with an all star team, a night club on site and were quite the pin up boys of the league and their crowds refelected that. Somehow they also declined from that pinnacle and had good and bad years but Wilkinson never left them and financed them a lot. They have finally lost their stadium at the Willows on the hope of a resurrection at the City of Salford ground but I think the rent there is a major factor in their present financial crisis with the gates never rising to the 8,000 they needed to make ends meet.

You Ask why though and I am at a loss. The one constant amongst all four teams is that on loss of their grounds they almost went belly up. Not staying near their roots was another factor in the decline of their support also with the exception of Salford. Maybe the inexorable rise of Manchester United from big to mega also impacted on the Manchester RL clubs. I don't know, that just a guess.

Salford are salvageable. They are in SL. They have a new stadium. Maybe the rent can be reduced. Let s hope they find a new investor?

Swinton are worth saving. They have a long and glorious history and I think they could be a decent community focussed CC club if they can get their ground situation sorted.

Oldham is much bigger than Swinton. They are somwhat isolated on the eastern side of Manchester. They have potential in my opinion but have a very long row to hoe before they can realise it.

You ask to what purpose should we try to salvage RL in Manchester. There is still a legacy for the game in the city. we should not let it die. Manchester is a media mecca. the game needs a presence there. I have read post from you before championing the big city concept for the game. Well, they don't come much bigger than Manchester. It's worth fighting for. The game cannot afford the geographical footprint of the still important heartlands to shrink any more. A strong club or two clubs in Manchester with a growing junior development is just as important as London. Does the game have the resources to do this? I don't know but it should take a serious look at the situation. Contraction is never good.

[John Rhino]

Excuse my ignorance but did Salford own the Willows when they moved?

Have they now sold it?

[TheMancunianCandidate]

I don’t understand your post in any practical way whatsoever?

Apologies, I was trying to say that no one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester and also to demonstrate that rugby league isn't about having a prior knowledge of the sport, but athletic ability.

With 3/4 Million people inside the M60, are we honestly saying that it's impossible to find rugby league players from this area?

I read your post about Wythenshawe being 'Sale' Territory. Wythenshawe has almost the same demographic profile of Wigan and Castleford and is a million miles away from a 'typical' Sale fan. A typical Sale fan by the way, earns 44K per year.

I stand by my assertion that no one has ever really tried to develop rugby league in Manchester in a co-ordinated, professional manner. The small amount of uncoordinated development that does happen rapidly bears fruit, which is very encouraging.

[Northern Sol]

Steady, their children Scorpions and North Wales Crusaders may be listening.

And they'd no doubt agree.

[The Parksider]

I can tell you how RL in Manchester has regressed. You Ask why though and I am at a loss. The one constant amongst all four teams is that on loss of their grounds they almost went belly up. Not staying near their roots was another factor in the decline of their support also with the exception of Salford. Maybe the inexorable rise of Manchester United from big to mega also impacted on the Manchester RL clubs.

You ask to what purpose should we try to salvage RL in Manchester. There is still a legacy for the game in the city. we should not let it die. Manchester is a media mecca. the game needs a presence there.

See below....

[The Parksider]

Apologies, I was trying to say that no one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester in a co-ordinated, professional manner. The small amount of uncoordinated development that does happen rapidly bears fruit, which is very encouraging.

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

[The Parksider]

No one really has tried in any organised way to develop rugby league in Manchester

Back to the debate and away from the childish personal stuff...................

You can check out the Salford Rugby League Foundation. As a Superleague club they are expected through their license to try to develop the game in the area and they do target the Manchester conurbation. Red Willow kindly explained the work they do with schools to me and I think you will find they have been into Wythenshawe.

You will also find that in direct competition the Union clubs in Manchester equally have development programmes going and they too have been to Wythenshawe. Which way most kid in Wythenshawe are pulled is most obvious from the District Junior soccer leagues. The vast majority of kids in Wythenshawe are happy with soccer something they will have grown up kicking a ball in the back garden with dad, watching City and United battle it out on telly with dad, and that first united/city shirt he bought them

If Salford Reds end up a championship club this aspect of the club will be lost and Rugby League may continue to be a tiny minority sport upheld by such amateur beacons as Eccles, Mayfield and St.Annes. For the kids there will always be United and City, I was going to say Sale but they too are struggling.

The returns on resources can be scant for RL development,. In my area Leeds United held a soccer camp and about 200 kids came and they played lots of soccer including the girls. Then the Rhinos had a camp of about 40 kids and most were girls doing cheerleading. The lads played touch and pass etc.

Behind the scenes where people don’t always look, Superleague is a vehicle for RL development and it is successful as far as it can be in a minority sport. Going back to Semi-pro would lose all that but obviously would fulfil the personal dreams of some of our old timers on here. Losing Salford would make RL development in Manchester too tough to perhaps contemplate, unless sport England are paying?

Edited by The Parksider, 16 December 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[keighley]

Both you and Keighley feel there should be a co-ordinated and well resourced push to develop Manchester for Rugby League.

You advocate this despite the game going from being big in the conurbation to literally dying out over a long agonising decline.

I think it would be fantastic if a massive and sustained development push was made.

Now can either of you tell me where the resources to do this will come from and why Manchester should have those resources over other areas that could be developed instead???

I think we should look at the success of London's amateur scene and see if there are any lessons, or game plans there.They went from nothing in an hostile environment to where they are today. There may be some lessons to be learned. Soccer is just massive there but the game has prevailed nevertheless.

I know funding from sport England has been cut but any money available for development officers should fund at least a couple for the whole of Manchester. They seem to have done exceptional work in the rest of the UK in kick starting or restarting RL development.

BARLA used to be visionary and expansionary in their outlook. Can they assist. The amateur teams we do have should be encouraged to run junior teams. There are several in Oldham, several more in Rochdale and at least three I can think of in Salford/Swinton What happened to the Broughton Rangers re incarnation as a junior club to encourage kids in that area,.Is it still functioning.?.

The schools competition has been successful for introducing thousands of children to out game throughout the UK. Is there any way to keep some of these children interested by running summer teams. Maybe we could find some dedicated teachers who would be prepared to help.

As you say, if Salford retain their SL status, they should make a renewed effort to support amateur/junior RL in their catchment area. Player visits to schools, free tickets to their new stadium for children, funding a development officer. They might be able to do a better job in this area if they find a really cashed up saviour. let's hope so.

Even the CC clubs, Swinton if they get back to their town and Oldham should be focal points for the amateur and youth teams in their area and help them with player visits, school visits and the like. I think Keighley run some such scheme and they have no money either.

Parksider, a fully professional SL can do lots of things and can be both a magnet and a catylyst for amateur growth. I don't want it to return to semi pro, but semi pro is preferable to extinction. Fully pro needs to be more stable and not be running into these constant financial meltdowns at numerous different clubs. If they don't plug the leaks, that ship will sink.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject of the re engaging of the Manchester public with out game.

The RFL should have long been looking at the decline of the game in Manchester as a serious problem and addressing it. The amateur game seems to be at a crossroads at the moment and they need to pay some attention or we will contract at that level. They need to put some resources into stabilising and expanding our amateur base including Manchester. Maybe the RLWC will be a huge success and give them some funds to make a start. Just a thought.

These failures can be reversed. When I started playing junior rugby a long time ago, the whole amateur game in the heartlands was down to a small fraction of what it had been and was dying from neglect from the governing body. BARLA, for all their later insularity, were formed and turned the whole amateur scene around, growing the number of teams exponentialy and saved the amateur game and maybe the pro game also in the process.

I think there will always be kids who are attracted to our game if we give them the opprtunity. We will never match soccer in popularity but there are plenty of young kids to work with, just look at our growth in London, where soccer is King.

[The Parksider]

I think we should look at the success of London's amateur scene and see if there are any lessons, or game plans there.They went from nothing in an hostile environment to where they are today. There may be some lessons to be learned. Soccer is just massive there but the game has prevailed nevertheless.

I know funding from sport England has been cut but any money available for development officers should fund at least a couple for the whole of Manchester. They seem to have done exceptional work in the rest of the UK in kick starting or restarting RL development.

BARLA used to be visionary and expansionary in their outlook. Can they assist. The amateur teams we do have should be encouraged to run junior teams. There are several in Oldham, several more in Rochdale and at least three I can think of in Salford/Swinton What happened to the Broughton Rangers re incarnation as a junior club to encourage kids in that area,.Is it still functioning.?.

The schools competition has been successful for introducing thousands of children to out game throughout the UK. Is there any way to keep some of these children interested by running summer teams. Maybe we could find some dedicated teachers who would be prepared to help.

As you say, if Salford retain their SL status, they should make a renewed effort to support amateur/junior RL in their catchment area. Player visits to schools, free tickets to their new stadium for children, funding a development officer. They might be able to do a better job in this area if they find a really cashed up saviour. let's hope so.

Even the CC clubs, Swinton if they get back to their town and Oldham should be focal points for the amateur and youth teams in their area and help them with player visits, school visits and the like. I think Keighley run some such scheme and they have no money either.

Parksider, a fully professional SL can do lots of things and can be both a magnet and a catylyst for amateur growth. I don't want it to return to semi pro, but semi pro is preferable to extinction. Fully pro needs to be more stable and not be running into these constant financial meltdowns at numerous different clubs. If they don't plug the leaks, that ship will sink.

These are just some random thoughts on the subject of the re engaging of the Manchester public with out game.

The RFL should have long been looking at the decline of the game in Manchester as a serious problem and addressing it. The amateur game seems to be at a crossroads at the moment and they need to pay some attention or we will contract at that level. They need to put some resources into stabilising and expanding our amateur base including Manchester. Maybe the RLWC will be a huge success and give them some funds to make a start. Just a thought.

These failures can be reversed. When I started playing junior rugby a long time ago, the whole amateur game in the heartlands was down to a small fraction of what it had been and was dying from neglect from the governing body. BARLA, for all their later insularity, were formed and turned the whole amateur scene around, growing the number of teams exponentialy and saved the amateur game and maybe the pro game also in the process.

I think there will always be kids who are attracted to our game if we give them the opprtunity. We will never match soccer in popularity but there are plenty of young kids to work with, just look at our growth in London, where soccer is King.

Great post there Mr. K.

Debate nicely back on track, after the thread wreckers interventions

[41hound]

It will be interesting to see what the club have to say at our supporters meeting tomorrow night. I hope they have some plans and also the stance of the RFL towards us if we fail.

My bet is it will be a load of bullish optimism and little of substance. But maybe not. If they ask for fans to start collecting we can be sure the end is nigh - The fact it is off season is making things a lot worse as there is no income. If there was a home game the supporters trust could ask all our fans to contribute to a fund to re-start the club if it folds - but it is going to be standing outside supermarkets with buckets at this rate.

I think if we don't get some "miracle" buyer next week, the game will be up for us ...

[The Parksider]

It will be interesting to see what the club have to say at our supporters meeting tomorrow night. I hope they have some plans and also the stance of the RFL towards us if we fail.

My bet is it will be a load of bullish optimism and little of substance. But maybe not. If they ask for fans to start collecting we can be sure the end is nigh - The fact it is off season is making things a lot worse as there is no income. If there was a home game the supporters trust could ask all our fans to contribute to a fund to re-start the club if it folds - but it is going to be standing outside supermarkets with buckets at this rate.

I think if we don't get some "miracle" buyer next week, the game will be up for us ...

Are you going? It would be great to know first hand what is said and what you think?

[41hound]

Are you going? It would be great to know first hand what is said and what you think?

I have to work 1400 to 2200 tomorrow, which is a shame, but as a member of the trust I should get a full report and I will happily share this.

[John Rhino]

Excuse my ignorance but did Salford own the Willows when they moved?

Have they now sold it?

???

[41hound]

???

No - it had to be sold and is now demollished. I believe all the money went to plan, build & move to new stadium - it went wrong - council + Peel got it built, but we now have no money or ground and lost cash flow from advertising etc...

WE were told new stadium was requisite for staying in SL - I wish is wasn't so as it has killed us off.

[roughyedspud]

its not a hard question.....did salford own the williows? and if they did wheres the money from it?

[tonyXIII]

No - it had to be sold and is now demollished. I believe all the money went to plan, build & move to new stadium - it went wrong - council + Peel got it built, but we now have no money or ground and lost cash flow from advertising etc...

WE were told new stadium was requisite for staying in SL - I wish is wasn't so as it has killed us off.

I don't think the saga is as simple as your last sentence suggests. I only have my own suspicions, but I think the rot began about 30 years ago when the club was slow to realise the need for investment. The ground rotted around us and its maintenance ate into the reserves. By the time it was sold, the ownership had already passed out of the club's hands into some kind of holding company. I also heard that the club wasted a lot of money on a series of feasibility studies and plans which never came to fruition. The team couldn't compete in SL, but could hold its own in the leagues before that, because there were weaker sides around.

So, while I don't disagree that the ground requirement for SL eventually killed us off, it was merely the final straw. Where did the money go? Who knows? I can't read balance sheets and track down the ins and outs, so I don't have the answer. My best guess is that The Willows was used as collateral for a loan and so passed into the hands of someone who then made a killing on its sale. Pure speculation, though!

[JohnM]

. Can anyone summarise what the current situation is?

Vigorously treading water by the sound of things, as people frantically work on a solution.

[John Drake]

Several posts removed for off topic personal attacks. Cut it out.

Stay on topic, or stay silent.

If you spot a problem, here or in any other thread, report it, don't respond to it. You just make matters worse.

Thank you.

[Padge]

Oldham were a big deal, always in the top part of the league, champions at one point, numerous internationals in their ranks, decent crowds and their own ground at Watersheddings.

95/95 d1 10th
93/94 d1 13th
92/93 d2 2nd
91/92 d2 3rd
90/91 d1 12th
89/90 d2 3rd
88/89 d1 12th
87/88 d2 1st
86/87 d1 13th
85/86 d1 9th
84/85 d1 5th
83/84 d1 10th
82/83 d1 8th
81/82 d2 1st
80/81 d1 16th

Need I go on?

Edited by Padge, 16 December 2012 - 10:27 PM.