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Salford Trouble/Salford Takeover


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#441 Pottsy

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:18 PM

I'm not sure that I said I liked it. It is interesting, and it certainly fits into the 'thinking outside the box' category. As usual, it should not be ruled out. All ideas should be discussed openly. Including this one.


Rumour has it a certain former club CEO was laughed out of a SLE board meeting a year or two ago for suggesting something along similar lines.

#442 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:47 PM

In order to ensure we don't end up at crossed purposes could you highlight the examples of 'top down' development you have in mind as being relative successes & blueprints for future expansion?


Check out for yourself what was achieved until the money ran out at any of the SL expansion clubs.

Sad thing is it ran out very early.

Trying to go back to the old fNorthern Rugby League doesn't work for me.

Nor did repeatedly arguing London are a failure as northern club after northern club hit the wall year on year....

What's your "blueprint for expansion"?

#443 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 02:48 PM

Rumour has it a certain former club CEO was laughed out of a SLE board meeting a year or two ago for suggesting something along similar lines.


OK its 12 clubs then :D

#444 intheshed

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:13 PM

Check out for yourself what was achieved until the money ran out at any of the SL expansion clubs.

Sad thing is it ran out very early.

Trying to go back to the old fNorthern Rugby League doesn't work for me.

Nor did repeatedly arguing London are a failure as northern club after northern club hit the wall year on year....

What's your "blueprint for expansion"?


Why so evasive? It was a genuine question tabled in a good natured way in order to ensure we were thinking of the same clubs when the term 'top down' is used.

Given your reticence I'll have to assume we are talking about Paris & Gateshead? I don't see the value in simply considering what happened before the money ran out. In both cases it did run out, very quickly, the clubs folded leaving no legacy in Paris and little if nothing in the case of Gateshead. That can't possibly be described as a success, or even a relative one, and something wish to repeat, surely?

I dont claim to have the answer to the question of how we expand RL geographically. For most of the history of the game we have been unable to do it at pro level. I do however subscribe to the theory that the definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing & expecting a different result.

Unless you are suggesting you have a way of ensuring the money cant run out, why should we expect Barcelona, Rome, Wales or any other venue you propose to end differently?

#445 keighley

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:15 PM

And there it is in all it’s glory. An undying love for that old lady “Northern Rugby League”. She’s over 100 years old now and bits of her are dying and falling off but she’s given you a life of excitement and ultimately satisfaction and as you grow old together you will remain loyal to the end. She’s still beautiful in your eyes, even though youngsters don’t take a look at her. No soft southern belle, no welsh dragon, no French tart can ever replace her.

Love is unconditional and we have to accept our partners faults. She’s old and past it so she’s not going to be any sponsors poster girl anymore, she’s not going to get her face in the newspapers, she’ll keep doddering on but as long as she does you’ll be by her side, you’ll support her, speak up for her for she is your first and will be your last love.

Indeed why bother with the “Poor” London, we can get poor crowds up here, we can develop new players in Oldham and Keighley, why did we ever bother with Wales or France just to be embarrassed by those international blow outs. Why did we give away thousands of free tickets for those SL openers in Wales and France to those freeloading foreigners when the good people of Halifax will pay full price. Why waste RFL money on the Wrexham stadium when we can waste it at Odsal, why look to Barcelona's riches when we have investors with a "few bob" now and again oop t'north, why bother that Rome can put on a competetive Italian RU international before a massive crowd, that's an alien game that's not "Northern Rugby League".

For some I don't think it's ever thought out in the head, that RL cannot move forward and will go backwards without ambition, without looking beyond it's boundaries, and without trying to be more than it is. Cue cries of "top down doesn't work" made from the heart, reply with it worked better than any bottom up when the money was there made from the head.

But you can't get in the way of an old couple who've been in love this last 60 years, they only have eyes for each other.


Waxing a bit poetic with the old symbolism this morning arn't we Parksider.

Well, lets play the game a bit just for a laugh.

Maybe, the old lady is an immortal mutant of the best kind who has been wounded a bit by her ememies of depression and poverty and just needs a little TLC to be back to her vibrant best ?

Have you seen how many older women are powers in the world. One might just be the Most powerful person in the world come the next US election, and another runs the most powerful economy in Europe and a third is head of state in the UK.

Most societies also help the aged and infirm. It's not quite the done thing to cast them out into the streets to starve.

None of that prevents families from having value in all age groups in their midst. Helping the elderly does not mean imposing compulsary birth control on the young and forbidding children.

There is room for all in a family. In the worst of times a frail, elderly grandma is a drain on the family finances and a swaddling infant is equally expensive.

However, by careful and proper husbanding of the family finances, grandma can be made well and contribute a lot to the welfare of the family unit and the infant can grow up and be productive also.

Most elderly members of a family do not only have eyes for each other, they, in fact, dote and fawn over their grandchildren and spend a lot of time and money visiting them and helping them wherever they might end up locating.

As for not looking beyond it's boundaries, have you checked out where the vast majority of your beloved SL are located. But as usual, "it's' don't do what I do, do what I say" with the SL Cabal and it's supporters. They don't really believe in expansion unless a cashed up investor comes along but they don't want any such rivals anywhere them in the North hence the super restrictive rules and conditions attached to SL applications and they definitely don't want to fund any expansion of the overall size of SL if it means sharing the wealth.

In fact, they don't even believe in expansion merely replacement, because any new teams have to have an existing member removed to accomodate them.

The family structure you are advocating will end up destroying it not strengthening the whole extended unit from grandma to newborn.

#446 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:27 PM

1....Superleague will take a few steps towards being more super than ever.

The evidence would suggest at the moment SL is at a low ebb. Clubs making damaging cuts to the academy sector and screaming poverty. As yet no main sponsor. The only way is up and hopefully the clubs and the game can find a way to all progress without damaging other parts of the game

2. Trying to build foundations in places where the game doesn't exist at a high level is ultra tough. Your the dreamer thinking that clubs in new areas will grow and grow from little acorns into SL clubs. You can't have it both ways, you can't slag SL clubs off in traditional areas for struggling then make out in non traditional areas you can create a thriving RL culture from the "grass roots".
Developing the game whether Pro or amateur is extremely tough and I know as am involved or have been involved for the past 7 or 8 years using often my own money. Funny how those little acorns with the right development and support can grow. My evidence is look at Hemel Stags, South London Storm etc who have grown and developed the game so that the game is played in most if not all schools in the area. Hemel has developed over 20 years so that they now are able to run a championship 1 team. Going further Serbia, Czech Rep, Norway have all developed well despite thousands of kilometres from a SL team. How is that possible? Most of the players at Hemel are from the area rather than Northerners or Aussies. I call that success. Now wheres your examples of Expansion working at SL level please?


Having a top club in an area is the best way to create interest like London do in the south east and Cru did in south Wales, when the money was there Gateshead did well too.

Good or Bad interest? Wheres your evidence to suggest the best way to create interest is to have a team in SL like London or Crusaders? I will give you a couple of examples in London of how amateur clubs have been setup and grown by simply having interest from people not involved at a SL club. London have a bad reputation even amongst their own fans and many of the London amateur boys actually got into RL via other means especially the South London Storm who have done a fantastic job in developing the game. Teams in Croydon, Addington, Wandsworth and Brixton now exist thanks to them not the Broncos/Quins. Weald Warriors were founded in 2012 by former Barrow and London Skolars players Anthony Bennett, Tom Phillips and Alex Nicholson. Nothing to do with Broncos/Quins. Elmbridge have been around under various names like Kingston, Wokingham and ambleside since 1985- well before SL and London got in! London Skolars was a Student or former student based team that grown on to bigger and better things. No evidence to suggest London Broncos/Quins or SL played any role in their formation. Though they do work together now. Hammersmith are based around Aussie expats and have no links or help from Broncos/Quins SL setup. Now where is your EVIDENCE to suggest that a club can be simply founded in an expansion area in the UK and grow to be a strong SL club?

You'll want to deny that of course but a little excersise looking at where in our traditional heartlands are the most players stimulated to play and fans stimulated to watch??

Why in Superleague areas of course.

But as usual London and Wales are somehow "different" nobody ever got interested in RL because of those clubs, neither club ever contributed to a rise in the game in their areas.


There you go again. You cant help yourself can you? You go and put your thoughts in to what other people have alleged to have said when they havent. I have never said nobody but I have said the majority come to play our game via other means than simply the SL club. There are many players that come from areas with no SL club- Halifax, Oldham, Cumbria, Wales, Midlands, Oxford etc. Most may come from SL areas- but thats to be expected really as a club should look first at its own area before looking elsewhere.

Edited by Lounge Room Lizard, 21 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.


#447 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:39 PM

You stick to airbrushing that bumper crowd out of your mind.


I don't need to, I am quite happy to say that there was a bumper crowd. However saying that this meant that there was a pro Barcelona team "mooted" is ballcocks. There never were any serious talks to make this happen. It is pure fantasy.

#448 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

Not a good situation Solly but after the first six or seven picks who knows what even the immediate future holds for the strugglers.

If a rich man gets his club a 3 year license do you think he should honour it?


Yes, if he can afford to do so but it's not a binding decision. If JW wanted to walk away then he could do so with only a slight stain on his fantastic record of support.

#449 keighley

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 03:41 PM

The evidence would suggest at the moment SL is at a low ebb. Clubs making damaging cuts to the academy sector and screaming poverty. As yet no main sponsor. The only way is up and hopefully the clubs and the game can find a way to all progress without damaging other parts of the game

2. Trying to build foundations in places where the game doesn't exist at a high level is ultra tough. Your the dreamer thinking that clubs in new areas will grow and grow from little acorns into SL clubs. You can't have it both ways, you can't slag SL clubs off in traditional areas for struggling then make out in non traditional areas you can create a thriving RL culture from the "grass roots".
Developing the game whether Pro or amateur is extremely tough and I know as am involved or have been involved for the past 7 or 8 years using often my own money. Funny how those little acorns with the right development and support can grow. My evidence is look at Hemel Stags, South London Storm etc who have grown and developed the game so that the game is played in most if not all schools in the area. Hemel has developed over 20 years so that they now are able to run a championship 1 team. Going further Serbia, Czech Rep, Norway have all developed well despite thousands of kilometres from a SL team. How is that possible? Most of the players at Hemel are from the area rather than Northerners or Aussies. I call that success. Now wheres your examples of Expansion working at SL level please?



Good or Bad interest? Wheres your evidence to suggest the best way to create interest is to have a team in SL like London or Crusaders? I will give you a couple of examples in London of how amateur clubs have been setup and grown by simply having interest from people not involved at a SL club. London have a bad reputation even amongst their own fans and many of the London amateur boys actually got into RL via other means especially the South London Storm who have done a fantastic job in developing the game. Teams in Croydon, Addington, Wandsworth and Brixton now exist thanks to them not the Broncos/Quins. Weald Warriors were founded in 2012 by former Barrow and London Skolars players Anthony Bennett, Tom Phillips and Alex Nicholson. Nothing to do with Broncos/Quins. Elmbridge have been around under various names like Kingston, Wokingham and ambleside since 1985- well before SL and London got in! London Skolars was a Student or former student based team that grown on to bigger and better things. No evidence to suggest London Broncos/Quins or SL played any role in their formation. Though they do work together now. Hammersmith are based around Aussie expats and have no links or help from Broncos/Quins SL setup. Now where is your EVIDENCE to suggest that a club can be simply founded in an expansion area in the UK and grow to be a strong SL club?



There you go again. You cant help yourself can you? You go and put your thoughts in to what other people have alleged to have said when they havent. I have never said nobody but I have said the majority come to play our game via other means than simply the SL club. There are many players that come from areas with no SL club- Halifax, Oldham, Cumbria, Wales, Midlands, Oxford etc. Most may come from SL areas- but thats to be expected really as a club should look first at its own area before looking elsewhere.


Spot on there. I've been making both of those main points to Parksider for a long time but there is no change whatsoever in his blinkered thinking and refusal to acknowledge basic facts.

#450 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:29 PM


I am quite happy to say that there was a bumper crowd.


That's great. Shows you that Rugby League is not just a game that attracts northerners.

#451 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:35 PM


Look at Hemel Stags, South London Storm etc who have grown and developed the game so that the game is played in most if not all schools in the area.

Wheres your evidence to suggest the best way to create interest is to have a team in SL like London or Crusaders?

I will give you a couple of examples in London of how amateur clubs have been setup and grown by simply having interest from people not involved at a SL club.

London have a bad reputation even amongst their own fans and many of the London amateur boys actually got into RL via other means especially the South London Storm who have done a fantastic job in developing the game. Teams in Croydon, Addington, Wandsworth and Brixton now exist thanks to them not the Broncos/Quins.

Weald Warriors were founded in 2012 by former Barrow and London Skolars players Anthony Bennett, Tom Phillips and Alex Nicholson. Nothing to do with Broncos/Quins.

Elmbridge well before SL and London got in! London Skolars was a Student or former student based team that grown on to bigger and better things. No evidence to suggest London Broncos/Quins or SL played any role in their formation.

Hammersmith are based around Aussie expats and have no links or help from Broncos/Quins SL setup.


Well London Broncos must be a real waste of time then.

Best put Halifax in Superleague instead eh?

#452 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:55 PM

Well London Broncos must be a real waste of time then.

Best put Halifax in Superleague instead eh?


Why do you try and make up what people put and lie? When have I ever said Halifax should be in SL? I am quite happy where Fax are making a profit and winning trophies etc. Maybe you can stop lieing what people put to try and make an argument. Its boring and not needed. Look what I actually put. I have said all there is to say. Maybe you should do the same as the thread is way off Salford topic now and people dont need to read the same rubbish over and over again and you telling lies.

#453 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:05 PM

Why so evasive? It was a genuine question tabled in a good natured way in order to ensure we were thinking of the same clubs when the term 'top down' is used.Given your reticence I'll have to assume we are talking about Paris & Gateshead? I don't see the value in simply considering what happened before the money ran out. In both cases it did run out, very quickly, the clubs folded leaving no legacy in Paris and little if nothing in the case of Gateshead. That can't possibly be described as a success, or even a relative one, and something wish to repeat, surely?


My evasiveness is based on knowing that you only have to mention Crusaders or London and they'll be out screaming what a waste of time and money they were/are and that there's no legacy to that waste of time and money, because crusaders didn't do anything for RL in Wales just like London Broncos do nothing for the game in London.

Maybe we should shut Wigan and Leeds down as clearly their presence does nothing for the game in those places either? Unless
the north is somehow different to the south or wales???

NO I'VE GOT IT- let's shut down the whole of superleague because they are just leaches and don't inspire anyone to play and don't create any interest in the game, our game will then flourish from the grass roots up all across the country.

If your in the mood for an honest answer will London RL continue to go from strength to strength if the Broncos shut down? Would welsh RL have kept on an upward curve if Crusaders were still in South Wales and SL.

Usual suspects need not send their postcards in.

Back to Salford. here's a club whose support was just as poor as Londons but we had an avalanch of posts over many years virtually all clamouring for London to be shut down because of poor support. Not a dickie bird was said about Salford's support.

We had criticism after criticism of London and Mr. Hughes as a pointless one man club which would collapse if mr. Hughes withdrew his money

According to Northern Sol if Mr. Wilkinson withdraws his it will leave a legacy of a "fantastic record of support". Can't see the same tributes coming for mr. Hughes, it will be "what a waste of time that was"

Keighley let the veil slip and that's the only reason I raise the point. He goes on about Manchester and how we need to do this and do that to save the place for Rugby League.

Here's a place that once had top top teams in Broughton (who had the games biggest junior set up) Swinton (who won all four cups) Salford (the archetypal glamour club under Snape) Oldham ( big club through the years) and Rochdale.

If those who find London and Crusaders a disgusting waste of time and money then they want to add up just how much people have sunk into those five clubs from in and around manchester, and how many years they have been sinking that money in if they REALLY want to find a truly collosal waste of time and money.

They'll find it slap bang in the middle of the so called "heartlands"

Edited by The Parksider, 21 December 2012 - 06:24 PM.


#454 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:17 PM


I have said all there is to say. Maybe you should do the same as the thread is way off Salford topic now and people dont need to read the same rubbish over and over again and you telling lies.


It's Ok we're back on the salford topic.

My point always has been that if you can put enough money into a professional club in the right area it can be a stimulus for underpinning successful RL growth in that area. I think that if Crusaders had been supported with enough money RL in Wales would be on a decent upward curve and would still be going well.

Before you go off on one there's been enough SKY money for the game to have underpinned the odd strategic club or two.

My simple point is that the north is not always automatically the right area. there are whole swathes of the north that don't give a fig about RL and keighley's attempts to tell me how we should not sacrifice a northern club for expansion took the biscuit.

You yourself admitted how the London amateur scene is starting to work with Broncos, that sounds great to me.

The RFL/SLE may well agree with me as the idea of central funding for Broncos was mooted by an SL chairman, ironically from a club Keighley suggested should not have to make way for London.

#455 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:31 PM

On twitter.


Stephen wild@steWild13

Thanks Ralph from RFL for given us the truth its lot more serious

Cannibal chiefs chew Camembert cheese,cos chewing keeps them cheeky.

#456 The Parksider

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:35 PM


When have I ever said Halifax should be in SL? I am quite happy where Fax are making a profit and winning trophies etc.


On another thread you say it's great news Mr. Abbot is leading the club towards Superleague?

#457 41hound

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:41 PM

Open question, as there is a lot of knowledge here - Us Salford fans are being starved of concrete plans for 2013 by our club. Do you think Salford will be able to play in ANY division if we go into admin and re-start? I think it is obvious we will be removed from SL if this happens, but is it now too late to play in Championship 1? Reforming the club and players to suit will take time ...

#458 thundergaz

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:56 PM

Open question, as there is a lot of knowledge here - Us Salford fans are being starved of concrete plans for 2013 by our club. Do you think Salford will be able to play in ANY division if we go into admin and re-start? I think it is obvious we will be removed from SL if this happens, but is it now too late to play in Championship 1? Reforming the club and players to suit will take time ...


Unless a team replaces Salford in SL from the champ then I doubt you will be aloud in the champ I hate to say it but more than likely you will be playing in champ one which is a league no one wants to be in with the distances between the teams and low attendances.

#459 intheshed

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:21 PM

My evasiveness is based on knowing that you only have to mention Crusaders or London and they'll be out screaming what a waste of time and money they were/are and that there's no legacy to that waste of time and money, because crusaders didn't do anything for RL in Wales just like London Broncos do nothing for the game in London.

Maybe we should shut Wigan and Leeds down as clearly their presence does nothing for the game in those places either? Unless
the north is somehow different to the south or wales???

NO I'VE GOT IT- let's shut down the whole of superleague because they are just leaches and don't inspire anyone to play and don't create any interest in the game, our game will then flourish from the grass roots up all across the country.

If your in the mood for an honest answer will London RL continue to go from strength to strength if the Broncos shut down? Would welsh RL have kept on an upward curve if Crusaders were still in South Wales and SL.

Usual suspects need not send their postcards in.

Back to Salford. here's a club whose support was just as poor as Londons but we had an avalanch of posts over many years virtually all clamouring for London to be shut down because of poor support. Not a dickie bird was said about Salford's support.

We had criticism after criticism of London and Mr. Hughes as a pointless one man club which would collapse if mr. Hughes withdrew his money

According to Northern Sol if Mr. Wilkinson withdraws his it will leave a legacy of a "fantastic record of support". Can't see the same tributes coming for mr. Hughes, it will be "what a waste of time that was"

Keighley let the veil slip and that's the only reason I raise the point. He goes on about Manchester and how we need to do this and do that to save the place for Rugby League.

Here's a place that once had top top teams in Broughton (who had the games biggest junior set up) Swinton (who won all four cups) Salford (the archetypal glamour club under Snape) Oldham ( big club through the years) and Rochdale.

If those who find London and Crusaders a disgusting waste of time and money then they want to add up just how much people have sunk into those five clubs from in and around manchester, and how many years they have been sinking that money in if they REALLY want to find a truly collosal waste of time and money.

They'll find it slap bang in the middle of the so called "heartlands"


Sorry but this reads like further evasion followed by an impressive attempt at diversion.

Its not about whether any club, area or expansion attempt was a waste of time or money but whether with the benefit of experience it would be wise to continue to do things the same way.

You've said in reply to another post that you feel with sufficient money Crusaders could have been a success and a SL club in the area would have drawn people into the game. Well the point is there wasn't enough money and the SL club no longer exists. This is broadly similar to the experience we had with Gateshead & Paris. Its not about whether the game should seek to expand, it should, but whether there is any reason to believe the 'top down' methrd actually delivers long term success. Unless you have come up with a way of making sure any future 'top down' club won't run out of money I simply don't see how you can advocate more of the same whilst crossing your fingers & hoping it might turn out differently.

I've run with Crusaders as a primary example as you have them forward but I'm not sure the South Wales incarnation would meet the description of a top down expansion. Either way I don't see them as a successful example of expansion or at least not one we should be seeking to replicate.

On London, i have nothing but admiration for David Hughes and those that have gone before him. Others will be better qualified than me to judge whether the community game could have grown without them or would shrink if they went but I cant see how they havent been and remain a huge assistance. But again that misses my point, I don't argue that it wouldn't be good to have SL presence in North & South Wales, Dublin, Rome, Barcelona or any other place you care to mention. I simply doubt the evidence exists to support your position that dropping a club in to a city with an initial backer can be relied upon to deliver a long term success.


#460 Northern Sol

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 07:37 PM

That's great. Shows you that Rugby League is not just a game that attracts northerners.


When did I say that it was?




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