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Salford Trouble/Salford Takeover


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#481 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:25 AM

nobody should wonder why they recieve abuse
because nobody shoild recieve abuse.

you and I have had all sorts of discussions over the years. I don't know about you, but I've enjoyed them immensely.
Nobody should recieve abuse for having tyhe 'wrong' ideas. I speak from bitter experience.

If someone is going to post in a constantly provocative nature, then they cannot complain when they receive an emotional response. That is what defines provoking!

The provocation stops, the unwelcome responses stop. It's not a coincidence. It's not about having the right or wrong ideas.
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#482 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 06:26 AM

But anyways...

So Salford have a cancelled a friendly now. Is this the latest sign of impending doom? Anything on the positive front?
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#483 The Parksider

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:32 AM

I am not interested in abusing Parky, I'm just hoping that he might come to understand that his behaviour encourages this.

He constantly misrepresents what people have said.


You still don't get it my good friend. You want to pass the opinion I misrepresent what people say, that's fine,
but I think you misrepresent things and I think several people who don't like SL will argue black is white with me.

These things do work both ways and as long as we are civil and stick to the debate fine. But your posts are all "you this" and "you that". That's just being personal.

So it may be best if we ignore each other, because all your doing is encouraging others who want a pop to hold your coat. Deal?

#484 The Parksider

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 07:38 AM

If someone is going to post in a constantly provocative nature, then they cannot complain when they receive an emotional response. That is what defines provoking!

The provocation stops, the unwelcome responses stop. It's not a coincidence. It's not about having the right or wrong ideas.


So what's going on here? Are you just trying to provoke me? You don't get it either, put me on ignore if you don't like me. That's what Mr. Drake requires.

#485 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:18 AM

You still don't get it my good friend. You want to pass the opinion I misrepresent what people say, that's fine,
but I think you misrepresent things and I think several people who don't like SL will argue black is white with me.

These things do work both ways and as long as we are civil and stick to the debate fine. But your posts are all "you this" and "you that". That's just being personal.

So it may be best if we ignore each other, because all your doing is encouraging others who want a pop to hold your coat. Deal?


I would if you stop perpetrating myths. There was never any Barcelona SL club "mooted". There were only some foolish posts made on the Internet.

The same goes for Dublin or Scotland.

These are not places that the RFL has chosen to expand to. They might might like to but these are just myths that you have created just like ParisSurTout invented a fictitious Stade Francais RL team.

#486 The Parksider

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:19 AM

There are so many straw men in there I wouldn't know where to start even if I felt inclined to indulge you. It's an impressive and detailed rebuttal of the case against expansion, however as it's not a case I'm seeking to make it's largely redundant.

My point was and is that the means of expansion you advocate, namely top down expansion, has been tried and does not appear to have worked. I'm afraid on that point I must tell you that yes, I do think you have it wrong. I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise but to date you have chosen not to support your position preferring instead to focus on issues which I am not seeking to dispute.

SL teams in Dublin, Cardiff, Rome etc..., absolutely. No argument from me, it sounds great just give me a reason to believe that if we do it the same way as we did with Paris, Gateshead & to a lesser extent Crusaders we won't get the same result, no SL club within a couple of years. As you say it shouldn't be about expansion v heartland and I would be equally sceptical about any plan to expend valuable time, credibility and resources on a harebrained plan to drop heartlands clubs into SL on the off chance it might work.


I'm happy to indulge you sir, and get back to debate :D You say "the means of expansion you advocate, namely top down expansion, has been tried and does not appear to have worked".

What I am saying is that the top down method financed by giving London or Crusaders or Gateshead the same money as Leeds, Hull and Wigan has not worked because the level of investment is paltry and does not take into account the fact that these expansion clubs need higher levels of income to succeed at top down.

What I am saying if people want to engage in the debate, is that when there was money there you saw success. London achieved fifth best supported club and fourth in the league and went on to the challenge cup final. Celtic Crusaders battled out a close game before 6,000 fans with Saints, Gatehead made mid-table and had crowds in excess of most traditional clubs from year one not far behind what widnes managed this year.

So top down works, it is just that it is underfinanced, and fails only when the finance fails. Which is usually relatively quickly

Now how Suprleague/RFL use the SKY money is their choice, but it would not be mine. I recognise the tremendous added value a succesful London and Wales would give to the game and i think maybe you do. I have always thought that a strategic club or two could be financed adequately enough for it to grow. Even SL through Neil Hudgell admitted London may have to be "centrally funded" if Mr, Hughes pulled out. So I'm not way off beam.

As for your idea it has "not worked" when it comes to these clubs building their own resources, as far as London go the informed opinion you can read in RL World is that they oversee one of the best player development systems now and that is so valuable to RL. Celtic Crusaders were getting good results with the kids too as reported by posters from down there and the RL press.

Top down works but the SL clubs and SKY won't make the adequate investment. It worked at Melbourne storm but I recognise the Aussie game is a greater attraction.

It was Mr. Keighley remarks I was replying to because he said it was not worth removing such as Hull.K.R. for London which was with respect to him typical bias against non northern clubs. Hull FC are in place to develop RL players and attract RL fans form Hull so the game doesn't need two clubs to do this, it needs a club to do this in other parts of the country to expand our game

Rugby League is a minority sport with scant resources it can build outside the M62 if that was planned and funded.

Finally (please do come back to the debate if you wish you'd be welcome) you refer to a "harebrained scheme to drop (I think you mean expansion here?) clubs into SL on the off chance it will work".

Don't you think Salford were dropped into SL on the off chance they would work? Or Halifax?? Or Bradford?? Or Wakefield?? Or Oldham?? The list is endless, and we see Cas declaring they are "not working" Neil Hudgell can't make HKR work either so I don't think it fair to differentiate between clubs depending on wether they are supposedly "Traditional" or "Expansion" they are all Rugby League clubs and if ever SKY/RFL/SLE decided to use Superleague as a vehicle for expanding the game, because the game only expands to any great degree in SL areas, I think the first six names on there have to be Leeds, Wigan, Hull, London, south wales and France.

I'd be delighted to hear your thoughts on this?

#487 The Parksider

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:20 AM

I would if you stop perpetrating myths.


Put me on ignore Solly, we don't see eye to eye. I'll pop you on ignore. Don't keep this going or the thread will be locked.

Good luck.....

#488 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 08:57 AM

Perhaps if everybody put Parky on ignore then we might see an end to his various myths.

#489 Pottsy

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:04 AM

Any chance someone could start a thread about the situation at Salford?

I'm sick of having to wade through dull circular/hypothetical arguments in the hope of finding anything slightly on-topic.

Quite what the impending demise of one of rugby league's most established clubs has to do with whether a hypothetical super league franchise in Barcelona is viable, I have no idea.

I'm more concerned about whether my club (and my remaining interest in this sport) will survive.

Edited by Pottsy, 22 December 2012 - 09:05 AM.


#490 Northern Sol

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:16 AM

Because some seem to think that the RFL is fighting off offers to base teams in Dublin, Edinburgh, Cardiff, Paris, Rome etc...

The reality is that aside from Toulouse, there are no viable clubs out the "heartlands" (arguably Toulouse is French heartlands) and thus Salford represent one the best of what is available. As do Fax, Leigh and even Fev.

#491 The Parksider

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:21 AM

Quite what the impending demise of one of rugby league's most established clubs has to do with whether a hypothetical super league franchise in Barcelona is viable, I have no idea.


I think when clubs like Salford go under (if it happens) it raises questions about whether Superleague itself is viable in it's current form, and approach. Is lifting another trad club with poor resources into their place the answer or a whole new approach? I'm sure when there's some news we'll get back onto Salford directly. Have you heard anything?

#492 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 09:22 AM

If someone is going to post in a constantly provocative nature, then they cannot complain when they receive an emotional response. That is what defines provoking!

The provocation stops, the unwelcome responses stop. It's not a coincidence. It's not about having the right or wrong ideas.


an emotional response is not the same as an abusive one.
If people post views that others find provocative that's the nature of discourse. Discussion if it is to be meaningful needs to be rational and informed.

I've found it very much about having the 'wrong' ideas.
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#493 tonyXIII

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:21 AM

I'll try not to be abusive, but I want to make a point about Parksider and his posts.

Back in post 469, about halfway down, you state "My point is simple". If it is simple, why is that post (along with many others of yours) so long? It is so long that I can't be bothered to read it all. I did start, but I lost the will after a couple of paragraphs. If you really do have a point to make, can I respectfully ask that you make it and move on? Please? Oh, btw, you are not alone in the "magazine article impersonating a message board post" stakes.

Anyway, it looks like Salford fans are in for an anxious Christmas, but I wish everyone (us especially) a merry Christmas and a prosperous and exciting 2013.

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#494 41hound

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 10:29 AM

But anyways...

So Salford have a cancelled a friendly now. Is this the latest sign of impending doom? Anything on the positive front?


Hi Wellsy - the cancellation was a bad sign indeed. The clubs have now reinstated it for 13th Jan, but that is after 7th January Winding up hearing. The home game v Swinton on 6th January is still on and they are selling tickets at Salford & Swinton's grounds and online. If the worse happens this MAY be Salford's last ever match - we need a big gate to help, please come and support if you can everyone ;)

#495 tonyXIII

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:02 AM

Hi Wellsy - the cancellation was a bad sign indeed. The clubs have now reinstated it for 13th Jan, but that is after 7th January Winding up hearing. The home game v Swinton on 6th January is still on and they are selling tickets at Salford & Swinton's grounds and online. If the worse happens this MAY be Salford's last ever match - we need a big gate to help, please come and support if you can everyone ;)


Weather and roads permitting, I'll be there. It could be my first and last game at the stadium.

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#496 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:02 AM

Hi Wellsy - the cancellation was a bad sign indeed. The clubs have now reinstated it for 13th Jan, but that is after 7th January Winding up hearing. The home game v Swinton on 6th January is still on and they are selling tickets at Salford & Swinton's grounds and online. If the worse happens this MAY be Salford's last ever match - we need a big gate to help, please come and support if you can everyone ;)

Have they started selling season tickets yet?
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#497 Pottsy

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:14 AM

They can't as they can't set a price structure until pricing is clear and there's every chance that the fans will lose their money

#498 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

They can't as they can't set a price structure until pricing is clear and there's every chance that the fans will lose their money

Bloody hell. It's not looking good at all. I don't see how they can come back from this so close to the start if the season.
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#499 Keith T

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

Now how Suprleague/RFL use the SKY money is their choice, but it would not be mine. I recognise the tremendous added value a succesful London and Wales would give to the game and i think maybe you do. I have always thought that a strategic club or two could be financed adequately enough for it to grow. Even SL through Neil Hudgell admitted London may have to be "centrally funded" if Mr, Hughes pulled out. So I'm not way off beam.


Would your strategic club include the likes of Workington or Whitehaven to give a Cumbrian expansion to SL? Why can't one of those two clubs be centrally funded then, would that not be top down? Don't let us forget that "London" in whatever form has been around for over 30 years in professional (or semi) RL and managed to write off £2 - £3 million worth of debt from one of their guises.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#500 intheshed

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Posted 22 December 2012 - 01:11 PM

They can't as they can't set a price structure until pricing is clear and there's every chance that the fans will lose their money


Is it overly cynical of me to wonder if on some level there is also a caculation that if the worst happens they are a more attractive proposition to buy from an administrator if season ticket money hasn't been swallowed by the debts of the old busines




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