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Operation Yewtree


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#41 Johnoco

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:16 AM

The commission of rape is always a power dynamic as it is forcing someone to do something against their will. Motivation is fairly immaterial as the crime is only commited when the power of one is imposed on the other. However, not all imbalanced power dynamics are a crime.

Well that makes sense and I can understand the point there.
But isn't it the case in say, a scenario where a guy gets carried away and carries on regardless of the others protests, simply about lust? Let's not forget lust is an incredibly strong emotion to control and not necessarily anything to do with control or power, merely the urge to, er.....how can I put it technically...shoot your load?

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#42 WearyRhino

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 10:53 AM

But isn't it the case in say, a scenario where a guy gets carried away and carries on regardless of the others protests, simply about lust?


If the victim doesn't have the power to stop it, then there is a power imbalance.

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#43 Johnoco

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:05 AM

If the victim doesn't have the power to stop it, then there is a power imbalance.

Definitely.
But that doesn't mean that the prime motive was about power. It could surely just be the case of being driven by lust and only that?

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

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#44 WearyRhino

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 11:39 AM

Definitely.
But that doesn't mean that the prime motive was about power. It could surely just be the case of being driven by lust and only that?


But it only becomes a crime on commission and that is ALWAYS about power because the perpetrator is making the victim do something they don't want to do because they are dominant in power relationship.

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#45 Johnoco

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:14 PM

But it only becomes a crime on commission and that is ALWAYS about power because the perpetrator is making the victim do something they don't want to do because they are dominant in power relationship.

Well let me put it like this, say a couple were having sex and halfway through the woman said 'stop it'. Now it may be the case that the man does stop but it might also be the case that the man is pretty excited and unable to control himself at that point and can't. Some people argue that it is exactly the same as someone attacking a woman by leaping out of the bushes (to use an old cliche) but the example I gave might have absolutely nothing to do with relationship dynamics or someone wanting to control another....just pure lust. I aren't necessarily disagreeing with you really, except on certain interpretations perhaps.


No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#46 WearyRhino

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:26 PM

Well let me put it like this, say a couple were having sex and halfway through the woman said 'stop it'. Now it may be the case that the man does stop but it might also be the case that the man is pretty excited and unable to control himself at that point and can't. Some people argue that it is exactly the same as someone attacking a woman by leaping out of the bushes (to use an old cliche) but the example I gave might have absolutely nothing to do with relationship dynamics or someone wanting to control another....just pure lust. I aren't necessarily disagreeing with you really, except on certain interpretations perhaps.


Are you seriously suggesting that a person can be so overcome by lust that they cannot be expected to stop when they have to? Do other similarly strong emotions provide the same mitigation? Is rage a defence against murder? Avarice a defence against armed bank robbery?

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#47 Johnoco

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 12:46 PM

Are you seriously suggesting that a person can be so overcome by lust that they cannot be expected to stop when they have to? Do other similarly strong emotions provide the same mitigation? Is rage a defence against murder? Avarice a defence against armed bank robbery?

You think they are equally comparable?
You think men are robots?

Please bear in mind that the example I gave was in mid flight so to speak and not an excuse to carry on regardless. I was just highlighting an example that some people say is the same as a pre meditated attack.

Edited by Johnoco, 09 February 2014 - 12:48 PM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#48 Saintslass

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:08 PM

You think they are equally comparable?
You think men are robots?
 

Rape is ALWAYS about one person dominating the other, whether that man be overcome by lust at the time or not.  A man is perfectly capable of withdrawal no matter at what stage they are asked to withdraw.  May be a bit messy and not satisfactory for the male but if the other person says no then to go ahead anyway is to rape that person. 



#49 WearyRhino

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:52 PM

Please bear in mind that the example I gave was in mid flight so to speak and not an excuse to carry on regardless. I was just highlighting an example that some people say is the same as a pre meditated attack.


If one's libido is one's guide to the extent that you have no control over it then I think a greater help is needed. Moreover, am I alone in putting more emphasis on my partners sexual pleasure than my own? If that's not the case then surely it's nothing more than assisted onanism.

Rape is rarely a pre-meditated attack btw.

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#50 Johnoco

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 02:58 PM

Rape is ALWAYS about one person dominating the other, whether that man be overcome by lust at the time or not. A man is perfectly capable of withdrawal no matter at what stage they are asked to withdraw. May be a bit messy and not satisfactory for the male but if the other person says no then to go ahead anyway is to rape that person.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was trying to argue that not every situation is about power or control. I am using a quite left field example but nonetheless one that I have heard of being used. Telling someone to stop mid bonk may be extremely difficult for some people, or they may even just be plain insensitive and selfish. But IMO that does not mean it was about power or control.
I aren't arguing here, I just don't think it is a one size fits all thing. And I think a lot of it comes from the feminist 'all men are rapists' BS.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#51 Saintslass

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 03:20 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was trying to argue that not every situation is about power or control. I am using a quite left field example but nonetheless one that I have heard of being used. Telling someone to stop mid bonk may be extremely difficult for some people, or they may even just be plain insensitive and selfish. But IMO that does not mean it was about power or control.
I aren't arguing here, I just don't think it is a one size fits all thing. And I think a lot of it comes from the feminist 'all men are rapists' BS.

My own point was that it doesn't matter the reasons, when one person dominates another after that other has said no then it is rape.  The reason could be insensitivity or selfishness but the outcome is still the same: go ahead and you have raped that other person, because that other person said no. 

 

I do appreciate that some feminists seem to think that all men are rapists.  I would suggest they are bitter for whatever reason because women per se, feminist or otherwise, don't routinely believe that all men are rapists.



#52 Bob8

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 04:52 PM

I'm not disagreeing with you. I was trying to argue that not every situation is about power or control. I am using a quite left field example but nonetheless one that I have heard of being used. Telling someone to stop mid bonk may be extremely difficult for some people, or they may even just be plain insensitive and selfish. But IMO that does not mean it was about power or control.
I aren't arguing here, I just don't think it is a one size fits all thing. And I think a lot of it comes from the feminist 'all men are rapists' BS.

I think you are being reasonable.  It is a power crime, but all everyones' actions have a variety of motives and we can only say what the major one is.


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#53 From the South

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Posted 09 February 2014 - 07:15 PM

If one's libido is one's guide to the extent that you have no control over it then I think a greater help is needed. Moreover, am I alone in putting more emphasis on my partners sexual pleasure than my own? If that's not the case then surely it's nothing more than assisted onanism.

Rape is rarely a pre-meditated attack btw

+1



#54 Red Willow

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 01:13 PM

The problem is the type of cases seen recently where the victim was unable to give consent usually because of the amount they have had to drink.



#55 Wolford6

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 02:32 PM

The jury is today deliberating  for a third day in the Dave Lee Travis case. The judge has ordered them to come up with a unanimous verdict. I don't see how that is justice, whatever the verdict.


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#56 Griff9of13

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:13 PM

The jury is today deliberating  for a third day in the Dave Lee Travis case. The judge has ordered them to come up with a unanimous verdict. I don't see how that is justice, whatever the verdict.

 

I think it needs to be 10 -2 for a unanimous verdict.

 

see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hung_jury


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#57 ckn

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Posted 12 February 2014 - 03:39 PM

The jury is today deliberating  for a third day in the Dave Lee Travis case. The judge has ordered them to come up with a unanimous verdict. I don't see how that is justice, whatever the verdict.

The judge may ask for a unanimous verdict in a case of particular significance or where there's likely to be a very hefty punishment to remove any sign of doubt in the jury.  Usually what happens is that by the 5th or so day the judge will then allow a majority verdict (max 10-2) but then this allows an easier avenue for the defendant to appeal on facts.  Typically, the Court of Appeal will only consider appeals based on the facts of a case in the most important of cases or where there's substantial proof of faulty evidence.  Even then, they'll usually only award a retrial if there's clear grounds for reasonable doubt, Court of Appeal acquittals on facts are unheard of when it comes down to opposing a jury's decision rather than opposing faulty evidence.

 

Just for the sake of pedantry, the Court of Appeal can consider appeals on facts, law and sentence.  The latter two are always open but sentencing appeals can be rejected unheard if the sentence is within the normal sentencing guidelines.  For those who don't get the difference between facts and law, I can punch you, that'd be a fact, but it may not be unlawful.


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#58 gingerjon

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:23 PM

DLT not guilty.


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#59 Futtocks

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:38 PM

DLT not guilty.

In full: DLT not guilty of sex crimes, still guilty of being a lousy DJ.

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#60 Phil

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Posted 13 February 2014 - 02:52 PM

The problem is the type of cases seen recently where the victim was unable to give consent usually because of the amount they have had to drink.

 

 

In which case its still rape, no consent spoken or otherwise has been given


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