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The SKY contract for RL - good or bad?


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#241 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 02:03 AM

1. Jeez.... You have contrived to argue that no points in a season in SL "wasn't that bad".

2. OK so now you are suggesting that somehow the only way was up for Halifax once that season was over?

Seriously are you making this up??

Have you not read up on the facts??

Or don't the facts suit???

3. Too right it didn't happen in reality. In your dreams it may have.

1. Jeez.... You have contrived to argue that no points in a season in SL "wasn't that bad".

2. OK so now you are suggesting that somehow the only way was up for Halifax once that season was over?

Seriously are you making this up??

Have you not read up on the facts??

Or don't the facts suit???

3. Too right it didn't happen in reality. In your dreams it may have.


What part of No Relegation don t you understand.? If that scenario had taken place this season Halifax would still be in SL and it would have happened irregardless of my dreams. They would have either improved or stayed the same. Either way they would have remained in SL.

Halifax won one game that season and had the points deducted. Widnes won 6 this last season. Given those circumstances, which season was worse ,Widnes or Halifax. Both were pretty dire.As usual you cut out the part of my post which didn t suit your argument. Those are facts. Halifax were in severe financial trouble. Widnes were funded by a mega rich investor. Those are also facts. Anyhow that was a throwaway observation.

The main point was UNDER A NO RELEGATION POLICY AS EXISTS NOW HALIFAX WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN RELEGATED.

#242 Celtic Rooster

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:41 AM

Actually I watched Salford home and away, along with my wife and 3 children for many years but about 4 years into Super Greed I could not stick any more. The first match I watched after deciding to give up Super Greed was Batley .v. Dewsbury and I spent many years just picking games to go to each week. Tended to put my money where it was needed like Chorley, Blackpool etc. However I went to Celtic Crusaders first ever league match and somehow got attached to them, only missing games when they clashed with Eccles ARLFC, even though I had a 430 mile round trip to home games. I admit to still following CC in their first season in Super Greed, but only cos I made so many friends, but then spent a season watching South Wales Scorpions. When North Wales Crusaders started last season I decided to follow them and only missed 1 game all season. Just bought a season ticket for this season. I have always followed amateur Rugby League on Saturdays and there are not many grounds in any league that I have not been to but I got involved with my home town club Eccles about 1999 and have not missed more than about 10 games since then. Not just Eccles, I love Rugby League but hate Super Greed!

#243 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:47 AM

What part of No Relegation don t you understand.? If that scenario had taken place this season Halifax would still be in SL and it would have happened irregardless of my dreams.


RFL/SLE have always reserved the right to withdraw a license Castleford and Wakefield were under threat by letter over their grounds, Bradford were under threat of losing theirs Salford are under threat of losing theirs now.

You can't just promise a business plan to the licensing people and then decide to run on a shoestring and fail to compete, you risk your license being taken away.

You in particular can't assume a club on a downward spiral can just "re-group" these words are meaningless.

So what part of face the facts don't you understand?

#244 JohnM

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 07:56 AM

You sre of course entitled to freedom of expression and action. Equally on a public forum you will expect to be judged and challenged. so in my opinion your use of the term Super Greed is misplaced and indeed demonstrates to.me that your claim to love Rugby League is invalid. To dismiss the honest and not very well rewarded efforts of something like 350 players in this tough game I find to be quite insulting to them.So no more use of " Super Greed" please.The least you should call it is the "elite competition".

Edited by JohnM, 15 December 2012 - 09:54 AM.


#245 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:27 AM

Actually I watched Salford home and away, along with my wife and 3 children for many years but about 4 years into Super Greed I could not stick any more. The first match I watched after deciding to give up Super Greed was Batley .v. Dewsbury and I spent many years just picking games to go to each week. Tended to put my money where it was needed like Chorley, Blackpool etc. However I went to Celtic Crusaders first ever league match and somehow got attached to them, only missing games when they clashed with Eccles ARLFC, even though I had a 430 mile round trip to home games. I admit to still following CC in their first season in Super Greed, but only cos I made so many friends, but then spent a season watching South Wales Scorpions. When North Wales Crusaders started last season I decided to follow them and only missed 1 game all season. Just bought a season ticket for this season. I have always followed amateur Rugby League on Saturdays and there are not many grounds in any league that I have not been to but I got involved with my home town club Eccles about 1999 and have not missed more than about 10 games since then. Not just Eccles, I love Rugby League but hate Super Greed!


Enjoyed the post - not sure about Super Greed, the SL clubs have to take all the SKY contract money they can't share it beyond SL, but they have displayed a selfish attitude at times. I too have had a lifetime of going all over to support the game, fondest memories were bus trips around west yorkshire to all the grounds. I've ended up watching Leeds regularly as their my lads club. The zealots on here use that against me when they run out of arguments. They are the people who say if their club folded they would stop watching the game :rolleyes: . Happy spectating.

#246 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:33 AM

Equally on a public forum you will expect to be judged and challenged.


I keep getting told people are entitled to their opinion??

You know Superleague is a ghetto, it's killing CC clubs, it's killing Great Britain, the rise in crowds it brings are false figures, the money it has attracted has all been wasted.

Over 200 posts on I think whether you like SL or not (personal choice) the general opinion is overwhelmingly that it has saved the game as a major sport.

If the contract had been refused we'd still have a game that I believe many of us on here would still follow, and enjoy, but "many of us on here" would be what? A hundred?

#247 shaun mc

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:19 AM

Thats a pretty narrow point IMO.
I don't see the majority of posts saying that it saved the game - more that the money had to be taken, like it or not.
I just don't see everyone walking away from the sport because of a theoretical scenario where we don't take Sky's dollar (as its not enough to sustain a full time sport, not just on principle) and we end up going elsewhere. That may only fund a part-time with a few full timers top division.
I'd contend that the majority of the sport from the Championship downwards will remain the same more or less. Its ingrained in a whole lot of communities and to assume they'd pack it in is to do them a huge mis-service.
My father has supported his team for about 64 years, he won't be walking away from the sport regardless of how much money is spent within the echelons of the top strata - £10 billion or 10 pence makes no difference to him.

#248 JohnM

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:45 AM

I'd like to back up my opinion. My contention is that without an elite pro competition, there would not be the virtuous spiral of increasing fans, increasing viewers, Sky subscribers, advertisers paying for slots when SL is broadcast all enabling Sky to buy the rights to broadcast SL, which funds the clubs to develop themselves, which as we have seen increases fans, and so on and so on. The free to air model public broadcasting proposed by some would just not be able to generate this amount of value.

The presence of the elite competition acts as an incentive to players and potential players of ambition and generates an interest al all levels of the game.

Thus in my view, if Sky had not come along, the game at the top level would have continued it downward spiral, the incentive or pull on the smaller clubs would have ceased, players and potential players of ambition would then have looked to union as their way forward as has notably happened with Andy Farrell, Chris Ashton, etc etc). So, 17 years on, our game would have been much smaller than it is now, there would be much less money in it, fewer clubs, and the vicious spiral of decline would be continuing.

#249 JohnM

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 09:46 AM

.
I don't see the majority of posts saying that it saved the game


Maybe time for a poll?

#250 Johnoco

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:09 AM

The game would still exist, that's probably beyond doubt. The big question is, in what state? Given modern competition from other sports and the way things are in this day and age I think it would disappear from the mass conscience *completely*. Far worse than it is now, by miles.
Clubs and teams are popping up all over the country and even the world. This simply wouldn't be happening without the sky money and effect it has had.

#251 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:08 PM

RFL/SLE have always reserved the right to withdraw a license Castleford and Wakefield were under threat by letter over their grounds, Bradford were under threat of losing theirs Salford are under threat of losing theirs now.

You can't just promise a business plan to the licensing people and then decide to run on a shoestring and fail to compete, you risk your license being taken away.

You in particular can't assume a club on a downward spiral can just "re-group" these words are meaningless.

So what part of face the facts don't you understand?


Which SL clubs have had their licence withdrawn to date?

#252 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 12:27 PM

I'd like to back up my opinion. My contention is that without an elite pro competition, there would not be the virtuous spiral of increasing fans, increasing viewers, Sky subscribers, advertisers paying for slots when SL is broadcast all enabling Sky to buy the rights to broadcast SL, which funds the clubs to develop themselves, which as we have seen increases fans, and so on and so on. The free to air model public broadcasting proposed by some would just not be able to generate this amount of value.

The presence of the elite competition acts as an incentive to players and potential players of ambition and generates an interest al all levels of the game.

Thus in my view, if Sky had not come along, the game at the top level would have continued it downward spiral, the incentive or pull on the smaller clubs would have ceased, players and potential players of ambition would then have looked to union as their way forward as has notably happened with Andy Farrell, Chris Ashton, etc etc). So, 17 years on, our game would have been much smaller than it is now, there would be much less money in it, fewer clubs, and the vicious spiral of decline would be continuing.


That's pretty much my view also. However the time has come to make the SL clubs self sustaining entities. They have overspent and to hell with the consequences and it has indeed led to the success in TV rating, attendances etc that you have quoted. Now the piper has to be paid and the consequences of the previous spending policies are here for all to see, Crusaders, Wakefield, Salford, Bradford, maybe Hull KR and Castleford are or have recently been in deep financial troube. In order to sustain the sucess of SL you have laid out, the clubs now need to balance the books so that no more go to the wall. Once that is done in a couple of years then maybe more risky spending patter ns will once again contribute to even more success for SL but that time is not now. Now is the time to consolidate.

#253 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 03:12 PM

Which SL clubs have had their licence withdrawn to date?


Crusaders had to stand down for Wakefield as the money had run out, anyway that's not the point.

#254 keighley

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 04:54 PM

Crusaders had to stand down for Wakefield as the money had run out, anyway that's not the point.


Crusaders withdrew. SL were about to boot Wakefield and admit them before their owners realised they couldn't hack it. Not that it didn't turn out really well for the game becauseiobviously we have found a gem in Glover. Does he have a brother in Manchester?

#255 Trojan

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 05:28 PM

Well played for being flushed out as someone who reckons Superleague is evil and no good for the sport but daredn't debate this. Up to now........

The 10 club SL is from a poster. Equally you can propose a 5 club SL playing each other six times a season and the use that as justification that superleague is not a success at all.

The reality is SL can return to being a 12 club competition to balance the books. It was 12 clubs for many years and on several occasions there was no P & R.

You stand as a prime example of those who contrive an extreme argument from a personal bias.

The only bias I have is that I think the absence of P&R is fundamentally bad for our game. General sports fans already describe our system as "bizarre" what the movers and shakers in sport will think if we have a ten team (not twelve) comp with two of the teams being from abroad god alone knows. That leaves 8 English clubs, how much notice are the Engllsh media going to take of such a comp? Very little is my guess. Our media profile has declined dramatically since we got into bed with Murdoch. They don't exactly ignore us but they come pretty close. Contrast this with the superb treatment the Beeb gave to RL's 1995 World Cup and Centenary. What did they get for their pains? Murdoch and Super League. Is it any wonder their treatment of our game is now a little less than overwhelming ? In those days the likes of Hanley, Schoey, Offiah were household names, how many of our top stars could be so descibed today? None! Kevin Sinfield is IMO the equal certainly of Schofield and possibly even Hanley, I'd like to bet no one not involved in RL south of Doncaster has heard of him.
I do think Super League has been bad for the game but there's no going back. But given that we are in a hole the least we could do is to stop digging! At least make the game recogniseable to fans of other sports as being based in the British tradition. We aren't Americans and we aren't Ausses. Our players have no SOO to motivate them to better things, we need the stimulous that P&R gives. ATM many of them are in a comfort zone.

Edited by Trojan, 15 December 2012 - 05:31 PM.

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#256 Johnoco

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 06:13 PM

Hanley et al became famous in a different media age. (they weren't actually *that* famous anyway in reality)

There's not a lot we can do about that except try to live in the world as it is, not as we'd like it to be.

#257 Padge

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:22 PM

Crusaders withdrew. SL were about to boot Wakefield and admit them before their owners realised they couldn't hack it.

Is that real fact, I know its your opinion and I know its my perception, is it the reality though,

These things are complex, and facts are not always what they seem.

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#258 Padge

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 08:41 PM

The only bias I have is that I think the absence of P&R is fundamentally bad for our game. General sports fans already describe our system as "bizarre" what the movers and shakers in sport will think if we have a ten team (not twelve) comp with two of the teams being from abroad god alone knows. That leaves 8 English clubs, how much notice are the Engllsh media going to take of such a comp? Very little is my guess. Our media profile has declined dramatically since we got into bed with Murdoch. They don't exactly ignore us but they come pretty close. Contrast this with the superb treatment the Beeb gave to RL's 1995 World Cup and Centenary. What did they get for their pains? Murdoch and Super League. Is it any wonder their treatment of our game is now a little less than overwhelming ? In those days the likes of Hanley, Schoey, Offiah were household names, how many of our top stars could be so descibed today? None! Kevin Sinfield is IMO the equal certainly of Schofield and possibly even Hanley, I'd like to bet no one not involved in RL south of Doncaster has heard of him.
I do think Super League has been bad for the game but there's no going back. But given that we are in a hole the least we could do is to stop digging! At least make the game recogniseable to fans of other sports as being based in the British tradition. We aren't Americans and we aren't Ausses. Our players have no SOO to motivate them to better things, we need the stimulous that P&R gives. ATM many of them are in a comfort zone.

Show me examples of our media profile being high pre-murdoch, show me post Wapping how our profile was raised, rugby's profile nosedived following the loss of regional offices, the fact is we then got treated the same as the Southern issues had aays treated us, ignored.

When Northern papers printed loads of rugby reports, those reports were not published elsewhere

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#259 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 10:36 PM

Crusaders withdrew. SL were about to boot Wakefield out and admit them.......


Oh give up. The RFL desperately wanted Glover and Newmarket full stop. Cru lost their licence without them or the RFL losing face.

#260 The Parksider

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Posted 15 December 2012 - 11:11 PM

The only bias I have is that I think the absence of P&R is fundamentally bad for our game. I do think Super League has been bad for the game.


On both counts the weight of opinion and evidence is against you but you are entitled to your opinion.




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