300 replies to this topic

[sheddings69]

It couldn't financially collapse you are right in my (humble!) opinion.

Only if it continued to follow the habit of spending more than it earns.

Even if all clubs were semi pro they don't have to spend more than they earn

Agreed.

Can and should the sport sustain full time professionalism even now? The financial performance of our 'top' SKY sponsored clubs suggests not.

[Johnoco]

SKY has been good for part of the game.....in my opinion it has been a massive missed opportunity.....but its not too late to change; if there's a will there's a way.

.....and you wouldn't lose your house, you'd get yourself another job!

Oh I can just walk into another job with the same money etc can I? Please pm the place for future reference bro.

[sheddings69]

Oh I can just walk into another job with the same money etc can I? Please pm the place for future reference bro.

May be not, but doesn't have to mean giving up and handing the deeds back!

[The Parksider]

Agreed.

Can and should the sport sustain full time professionalism even now? The financial performance of our 'top' SKY sponsored clubs suggests not.

Can it???????

Not at a salary cap of £1.6M

Maybe just if you cut SL to 12

Probably 14 clubs at a cap of £1.2M

Should it??????

I take it that the essence of the SKY contract is SKY want a professional league and pay the money to augment wages - Padge seems to support that.

I like the idea of 16 clubs at a cap of £1M which a couple of CC clubs outside the 16 may be able to manage? We may get meaningful P & R then.

How we become more fairer and more inclusive seems to me to be (on the face of it)about how we run Superleague and not what an evil pointless bad thing it is.

Edited by The Parksider, 11 December 2012 - 02:19 PM.

[Dave T]

Agreed.

Can and should the sport sustain full time professionalism even now? The financial performance of our 'top' SKY sponsored clubs suggests not.

Our top clubs' financial performance is similar and maybe better than football and RU's financial performance.

[intheshed]

The initial offer from Sky was for the money to be for the televising of SL only, Murdoch pitched the bid so high because he wanted to ensure that the UK branch of his Star League (Super League) could compete with the ARL as far as contract money went during his battle with Packer, by default that money was exclusively therefore for SL.

The RFL had a problem though in that the excluded clubs were extremely unhappy at the situation, particularly as there was nothing in it for them. Lindsey went back to News International and got more money out of them exclusively to buy off the clubs who would be outside SL, NI said basically that was it and they could take it or leave it and don't come back for more later.

I don't have the figures at hand but I think each 2nd division club got around £100,000 and each 3rd tier club got around £50.000.

Wouldn't disagree with any of that, except for possobly the figures in the final para, my recollection being that the distibution was far from even. Its not hugely relevant to the point but fev got around £700k in the 1st year, it was the beginning of a near 20 vendetta against us

My point was that the suggestion that tv money would be more evenly distributed had sky been been turned down doesn't stand up. Unless my memory is failing me the pre SL sky tv money wasn't spread amongst all member clubs. If there is no contractual demand that money must be retained by SL then whatever one thinks thinks of the current distibution I see no plausible reason to believe it is somehow a consequence of taking the sky deal over any other that may have been around.

[Johnoco]

May be not, but doesn't have to mean giving up and handing the deeds back!

It does if you can't raise the required level of income to pay your mortgage.

We have lost RL stars to RU already and there is talk of probably our brightest star (ST) going to RU after the 2013 WC. And this is with the SKY money!! What the situation would be like without it, god knows.

Yes, RL would still exist but almost certainly part time and very regionalised. (even moreso)

[keighley]

Well I considered and deliberated your idea as regards a returned to semi pro RL attracting players in the same way today as they did pre-1995.

Both JohnM and myself respectfully suggested that it would not happen in terms of the top players because RU can take players with their financial muscle as opposed to the pre-1996 position where League could take unions best and did.

You could have considered and deliberated that, you could have either agreed with us or agreed to disagree.

I'd have been happy to have accepted if you did not want to agree. Childish digs however have no place in an adult debate.

I do note however you feel there would be no wholesale switch, and I'd agree that would be the case up to a point - just how many RL players would union want???

However how many would they have to take of our top stars for people to think twice about playing or watching???

There's no doubt that semi-pro RL would survive and IF that meant it became a tiny northern game then for those who do not worry about such things e.g. - Marauder says it would be a "happy" game......

then fair enough.

Given that there is semi pro RL in Gateshead, London, Hemel, Oxford, North and South Wales, Gloucester and soon Coventry, how do you figure it would beome a tiny Northern game if it went semi pro. Seeing as 14 x 17 + 238 each Union club would need to sign getting on for 20 players from RL and the forwards don't fit in to RU very well anyway so I don't think there wouild be the mass transfer you might imagine.

I don't advocate semi pro unless it becomes absolutely necessary, but unless SL sorts out it's funding issues, it might just have to go semi pro at some of it's clubs. It would be a severe blow to the sport but it might be an inevitability. the SL cannot live on credit forever.

[Johnoco]

All those places you list would almost certainly not be playing RL if not for SL and the SKY deal and the subsequent unbanning of RU players.

[JohnM]

in addition, without the pulling power of SuperLeague as it is now, I don't think there would be semi pro RL in Gateshead, London, Hemel, Oxford, North and South Wales, Gloucester and soon Coventry.

The relentless march of rugby union, incl the higher salary cap in England, the lack of salary cap in France and no doubt other countries too would men the loss of our best SL talent our best semi-pro talent and after a number of years , our best emerging amateur talent. As the dominoes fall, so we'd lose unis. colleges and schools.

To be honest, I reckon we should had over the organisation and running of the game here to Australia..at least the don't seem to have this desire to drive the game back in time.

Edited by JohnM, 11 December 2012 - 04:46 PM.

[keighley]

All those places you list would almost certainly not be playing RL if not for SL and the SKY deal and the subsequent unbanning of RU players.

What Sky funding are those teams getting.? Not very much.

I would agree with you about the relaxation of the RU ban but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Sky money. The RU would be no problem to RL if it were not professional and once it went pro the lifting of the ban was inevitable.

[JohnM]

If players would move to Union wholesale John, why not RL clubs???

No reason. Leeds is already a dual code club.

[keighley]

in addition, without the pulling power of SuperLeague as it is now, I don't think there would be semi pro RL in Gateshead, London, Hemel, Oxford, North and South Wales, Gloucester and soon Coventry.

The relentless march of rugby union, incl the higher salary cap in England, the lack of salary cap in France and no doubt other countries too would men the loss of our best SL talent our best semi-pro talent and after a number of years , our best emerging amateur talent. As the dominoes fall, so we'd lose unis. colleges and schools.

To be honest, I reckon we should had over the organisation and running of the game here to Australia..at least the don't seem to have this desire to drive the game back in time.

Are you saying that all the summer conference expansion, the development officers work, not funded by Sky, and the expansion into the armed forces, after great work by the RL Parliamentarians, the colleges, which pre date SL and Sky, and finally the CC1 expansion teams proposed and encouraged by the RFL are due to the drawing power of SL, the same drawing power which can't get 3,000 to watch its games at the Broncos. I don't think so.

The Australians don't need to retrench their game. They are the number one sport in their country and have just signed a billion dollar TV contract. If we had that in the UK, no one would be talking about a return to semi pro. I, for one, don't wish a return to semi pro but how do you propose to sustain the unsustainable SL without some reduction in salaries or even a return to semi pro. Just exactly where is the money coming from ?

If Salford go under and Cas and Hull KR and if Hughes and O'Connor refuse to put more money into London and Widnes and demand that they become self sustaining but they can't because the Sky money is not enough, just how do you propose that SL survives.?

[keighley]

No reason. Leeds is already a dual code club.

Yes, indeed, and nobody watches the RU half. It wouls die without the Rhinos.

[JohnM]

who would die without the Sky money, leaving Leeds a single code club.

[Johnoco]

What Sky funding are those teams getting.? Not very much.

I would agree with you about the relaxation of the RU ban but that has absolutely nothing to do with the Sky money. The RU would be no problem to RL if it were not professional and once it went pro the lifting of the ban was inevitable.

If the RFL had no cash, (ie sky money etc) no one would be doing anything in those areas. You might want to pretend they appeared by magic but they didn't - it is down to the growth of the game. You know, this dying game.

[JohnM]

Are you saying that all the summer conference expansion, the development officers work, not funded by Sky, and the expansion into the armed forces, after great work by the RL Parliamentarians, the colleges, which pre date SL and Sky, and finally the CC1 expansion teams proposed and encouraged by the RFL are due to the drawing power of SL,

Not just saying it. It is true. Without Sky there would have been nothing by now. Given that sport now a huge economic enterprise, providing a decent living for thousands and thousands of people, what might a young lad dream of. Well, clearly, playing for Man City would be top of the list. But what about those who look to the likes of Owen Farrell, Chris Ashton, Joel Tomkins, the NRL Burgesses? Ah!

Perchance to dream...One day I might be good enough to play for Jonny Wilkinson's Toulouse?..or Ossett Trinity?

Edited by JohnM, 11 December 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[John Rhino]

The issue, though is not that players we no good before Sky/SL but where would those players be now if Sky etc had not happened. I'd say those players would be playing union at the top level, not amateur or semi pro rugby league.

My point exactly. We all know that even local union clubs pay silly money to their players and this will only increase considerably after their next world cup as the stated aim of the RFU is not to muck it up like they did last time.

Without the Sky money Rugby would be in a very sorry state today.

And in return I thank Parky for his opinion.

[keighley]

Not just saying it. It is true. Without Sky there would have been nothing by now. Given that sport now a huge economic enterprise, providing a decent living for thousands and thousands of people, what might a young lad dream of. Well, clearly, playing for Man City would be top of the list. But what about those who look to the likes of Owen Farrell, Chris Ashton, Joel Tomkins, the NRL Burgesses? Ah!

Perchance to dream...One day I might be good enough to play for Jonny Wilkinson's Toulouse?..or Ossett Trinity?

It is not true. Just because you say so dosn't make it so. What money does the Army RL for instance ger from Sky or any University side or any conference side. None.

Furthermore, I was a kid playing RL once. My friends and I played amateur RL because we liked and enjoyed it. I was forced to play RU at school but chose to play RL of my own volition. No kid says," I think I am such a brilliant sportsman, I will pursue a professional career, now, which sport will give me the most money?". That's just a load of rubbish.

Salford have just been denied any money from Salford Council. They might be history. They did not have the money to be fully professional and have played the price. If the game had gone back to semi pro, they might have survived.

If there is not some serious consideration given to this full time professional idea and how it is going to be paid for, I fear for the future. The Sky money is not enough, good as it has been for the game, it has spawned unrealistic ambitions.

[shrek]

who would die without the Sky money, leaving Leeds a single code club.

Who's to say it won't be Sky/TV money that facilitates that very thing happening at some point in the future?