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Are England better than the Kiwis?


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#41 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:23 PM

For once, AC has made a point I would like to pick up on. It is "rare" that our players play Down Under - very rare indeed, certainly when compared with the number of tours the Aussies and Kiwis make. I wonder whether that lack of familiarity with conditions - and refs of course - Down Under really hampers us, so that we end up under-performing over there. Maybe we would be much better by the time we had played Down Under 3 or 4 times in a few years. Of course, given the speed at which our top players are mving to the NRL, this disadvantage should reduce over time.

#42 roughyedspud

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:26 PM

absolutely....and that goes with EVERYTHING i've said...


when we play NZ in england we have the upper hand...


when we play NZ in NZ/down under they have the upper hand


but we don't fear them cos theres nothing to fear...we've not got a 40 year losing record against NZ lol.......in fact i've spoke to kiwi fans who hate the fact its like that between us...they can't get their head around how they can get up against the aussies in big games....yet "stumble" against england

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#43 Futtocks

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:41 PM

For once, AC has made a point I would like to pick up on. It is "rare" that our players play Down Under - very rare indeed, certainly when compared with the number of tours the Aussies and Kiwis make. I wonder whether that lack of familiarity with conditions - and refs of course - Down Under really hampers us, so that we end up under-performing over there. Maybe we would be much better by the time we had played Down Under 3 or 4 times in a few years. Of course, given the speed at which our top players are mving to the NRL, this disadvantage should reduce over time.


In recent weeks, we've had the RU Autumn Internationals, and on Radio 5, one of the teams (I forget which) was described as "inexperienced" because several players had only about 15-20 caps each.

In RL, that'd be the kind of total a veteran would have!

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#44 roughyedspud

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:41 PM

For once, AC has made a point I would like to pick up on. It is "rare" that our players play Down Under - very rare indeed, certainly when compared with the number of tours the Aussies and Kiwis make. I wonder whether that lack of familiarity with conditions - and refs of course - Down Under really hampers us, so that we end up under-performing over there. Maybe we would be much better by the time we had played Down Under 3 or 4 times in a few years. Of course, given the speed at which our top players are mving to the NRL, this disadvantage should reduce over time.


its rare because the aussies & kiwis can't be arsed hosting.....neither could be arsed hosting anything between 2000-2005....the 2006 tri nations,2008 world cup & 2010 4nations where part of a agreement for them to get more involved...

also england wanted to tour NZ this year...but the kiwis ###### out........thats not our fault....that would have been our 3rd trip down under in 5 years...it took GB 10 years to do that..1996,1999,2006

Edited by roughyedspud, 12 December 2012 - 12:42 PM.

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#45 Exiled Wiganer

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

its rare because the aussies & kiwis can't be arsed hosting.....neither could be arsed hosting anything between 2000-2005....the 2006 tri nations,2008 world cup & 2010 4nations where part of a agreement for them to get more involved...

also england wanted to tour NZ this year...but the kiwis ###### out........thats not our fault....that would have been our 3rd trip down under in 5 years...it took GB 10 years to do that..1996,1999,2006


I agree - I wasn't suggesting we were at fault, and hope that the future will be better than the recent past, simply that I think we may not be as bad as we appear when we go Down Under.
One thing that is yet to play itself out is the effect of having potentially a majority of the team playing in the NRL - will that reduce any "fear factor" against the Aussies, or will they know our boys so well we lose the advantage of any surprise?

#46 Just Browny

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

New Zealand are definitely better, and no 'results' or 'evidence' to the contrary will convince me otherwise.

When New Zealand win, it's two full-strength teams fighting it out in perfectly equal conditions with no advantage to either side.

When England win, it's because New Zealand were hardly able to field a team, with the Queen refereeing and England having the wind/slope in both halves.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#47 boxhead

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:10 PM

its rare because the aussies & kiwis can't be arsed hosting.....neither could be arsed hosting anything between 2000-2005....the 2006 tri nations,2008 world cup & 2010 4nations where part of a agreement for them to get more involved...

also england wanted to tour NZ this year...but the kiwis ###### out........thats not our fault....that would have been our 3rd trip down under in 5 years...it took GB 10 years to do that..1996,1999,2006


What do you have to back that up that they cant be arsed hosting and if you are correct why do you consider this is the case?

#48 roughyedspud

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:11 PM

I agree - I wasn't suggesting we were at fault, and hope that the future will be better than the recent past, simply that I think we may not be as bad as we appear when we go Down Under.
One thing that is yet to play itself out is the effect of having potentially a majority of the team playing in the NRL - will that reduce any "fear factor" against the Aussies, or will they know our boys so well we lose the advantage of any surprise?


absolutely it'll reduce the fear factor...thats exactly how the kiwis have got over it...

i don't think its a question of them "knowing our guys"....they struggle handling sam & jammer week in week out....stats have shown melbourne are a better team with widdop partnering cronk....jack reed is holding his own very well.....i dare say aussies playing against brits every week earn the respect of the aussies and the brits get used to playing against them......but meeting super league players once or twice a year in tests..the aussies think.."who the hell are these" and runs right over them....likewise the super league players have'nt got a clue what to expect...if you get what i mean?

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#49 boxhead

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:18 PM

absolutely it'll reduce the fear factor...thats exactly how the kiwis have got over it...

i don't think its a question of them "knowing our guys"....they struggle handling sam & jammer week in week out....stats have shown melbourne are a better team with widdop partnering cronk....jack reed is holding his own very well.....i dare say aussies playing against brits every week earn the respect of the aussies and the brits get used to playing against them......but meeting super league players once or twice a year in tests..the aussies think.."who the hell are these" and runs right over them....likewise the super league players have'nt got a clue what to expect...if you get what i mean?


Really?
If you are a good player how would you get run over?
Surely when the JT said he has never heard of Sam Tomkins the advantage is with Tomkins...
How do Boxers get on then that have not met each other?

#50 Futtocks

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

will they know our boys so well we lose the advantage of any surprise?


Well, the Kiwi team that won the 4 Nations and the RWC were almost totally* made up of NRL players.

*Thomas Leuluai being the only exception, I think.

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#51 roughyedspud

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:23 PM

What do you have to back that up that they cant be arsed hosting and if you are correct why do you consider this is the case?


are you serious?? do you know anything about international rugby league??? the aussies know theres little to no appetite for international RL during the aussie summer.......the 2004 & 2005 tri nations returned a healthy profit ( £750k -£1m) when held here........the 2006 tri nations held down under lost, in the words of david gallop, hundreds of thousands of dollars...its my understanding the world cup would have struggled to make a profit without the queensland government stumping up a few million to host the big semi & final

sure the NRL is worth a billion dollars.......but they struggle to make money out of internationals

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#52 roughyedspud

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:25 PM

Really?
If you are a good player how would you get run over?
Surely when the JT said he has never heard of Sam Tomkins the advantage is with Tomkins...
How do Boxers get on then that have not met each other?


they figured sam out by chucking up a high ball

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#53 boxhead

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:32 PM

are you serious?? do you know anything about international rugby league??? the aussies know theres little to no appetite for international RL during the aussie summer.......the 2004 & 2005 tri nations returned a healthy profit ( £750k -£1m) when held here........the 2006 tri nations held down under lost, in the words of david gallop, hundreds of thousands of dollars...its my understanding the world cup would have struggled to make a profit without the queensland government stumping up a few million to host the big semi & final

sure the NRL is worth a billion dollars.......but they struggle to make money out of internationals


That does not answer the question.
The lack of appetite is mainly due to England/GB not winning anything in two lifetimes.
Why are Internationals at such a low point? because the game in England has been run by mugs and Clubs more selfish than any NRL clubs have ever been.
I love how the poms whinge about Oz when its the poms that have let the game down massively for four decades, next you will be saying its SOO fault.
Australians lost interest in the poms ever being competitive, its that simple, losers do not sell well usually.
If England won a game once in awhile Test league would be what players and fans aspire to, the fact that England/GB have been so bad for so long is hardly Australia or their fans fault.
Its hard to sell ###### they say.

#54 boxhead

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:36 PM

they figured sam out by chucking up a high ball

They figured out Tomkins a lot more comprehensively than that, same as they easily worked out Roby.
Tomkins will never be a big issue to Australia, he will have to be marked and sorted, nothing more than NRL Clubs do week in week out.

#55 Dave T

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:03 PM

New Zealand are definitely better, and no 'results' or 'evidence' to the contrary will convince me otherwise.

When New Zealand win, it's two full-strength teams fighting it out in perfectly equal conditions with no advantage to either side.

When England win, it's because New Zealand were hardly able to field a team, with the Queen refereeing and England having the wind/slope in both halves.

+1

That should be the final word on the matter :D

#56 RSN

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 02:56 PM

That is an on going myth.
Isn't Sinfield being nominated as the best player in the World at the moment? he is no spring chicken, how does that work? I thought Roby was close to the best Hooker in the game?
Englands forwards are not better, and the backs are nowhere near, if they were they would have won or come close more in the last 5 years.


For starters I didn't generally count the Hooker as I stated Aus dominate us in this position.

The Aus forwards are directed a hell of a lot better than Englands and are always running the right direction, and their kicking has been so much better than ours. Let's say both forwards make 40m off a set what generally happens after an England set is Slater picks it up on the 20m and makes it too the 30m. Then after an Aussie set Thurston/Smith kick it into the ingoal area/into touch around the 10m and we're starting our play from there. This happens countless times. I bet the England forwards get sick of carrying the ball from their own 10 20m it drains energy out of you.

Take the grand final for example, Wires pack is much superior to Leeds, not one Leeds forward should be considered near englands strongest 17 yet Wire with England definites in Westwood and Hill and players in contention like Carvell and Morley looked like a worse pack than Leeds. Why with better players did Wires pack look worse than Leeds? Might of been to do with the guy who got man of the match. Sinfield showed the direction and leadership of the Leeds team to what Smith and Thurston offer too Australia. When Wigan thumped leads at headingley individually the pack of Wigan was depleted and didn't seem to have much talent but the direction finch of leuleuai offered took Wigan through the game.

The point is that the direction and kicking game of Aus is something England don't have and why their forwards get the upper hand of us.

#57 HappyDave

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:01 PM

Well, the Kiwi team that won the 4 Nations and the RWC were almost totally* made up of NRL players.

*Thomas Leuluai being the only exception, I think.


The RWC is the Rugby Union World Cup, and trademarked by the IRB, the Coup de monde Rugby XIII (the RLWC) has never been called the 'Rugby World Cup'.
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#58 HappyDave

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:11 PM

They figured out Tomkins a lot more comprehensively than that, same as they easily worked out Roby.
Tomkins will never be a big issue to Australia, he will have to be marked and sorted, nothing more than NRL Clubs do week in week out.


Wasn't supposedly the 'best Fullback in the NRL' shut out in the NRL Grand Final?... That analogy doesn't wash. If Melbourne 'found Barba out' then why didn't other team and why do Aussies rave about him?

Sometimes Tomkins has brain explosions under high-bombs, but didn't Slater cost the 'Roos the RLWC 2008?..
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#59 RSN

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:42 PM

They figured out Tomkins a lot more comprehensively than that, same as they easily worked out Roby.
Tomkins will never be a big issue to Australia, he will have to be marked and sorted, nothing more than NRL Clubs do week in week out.


Didn't he make a 40m ball return against them? Obviously must of missed something to allow him to get to get past 4 defenders. Watch 1:48 on the link below on how Thurston figures him out by letting him skip past him and gives it too Reed who puts hall in who scores in the corner. Or check the same video at 4:15 as Williams figures him out by letting him hand him off and let him too flick to Heighington who scorers without a finger laid on him. Or you can view Englands first try as Aussies winger was it Morris? tries to run out and hit Tomkins which gives Hall the chance to score in the corner. 3 out of 4 Englands tries had a heavy factor of Tomkins involved. He must be figured out I guess?

You can throw a link out of Tomkins dropping a high ball, but I'll be able to produce just as many of Slater making equally bad mistakes.



#60 RSN

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:45 PM

Wasn't supposedly the 'best Fullback in the NRL' shut out in the NRL Grand Final?... That analogy doesn't wash. If Melbourne 'found Barba out' then why didn't other team and why do Aussies rave about him?

Sometimes Tomkins has brain explosions under high-bombs, but didn't Slater cost the 'Roos the RLWC 2008?..


Nope Slater is invincible and never makes mistakes especially in big games god don't be putting that tripe on here about the chosen one




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