198 replies to this topic

[Trojan]

@Trojan: you constantly deride Sky as being 'in a ghetto', despite most people having it today, yet use an example from a fairly obscure Rugby mag as evidence that Schofield and co were very famous? OK.....

Rugby Post isn't obscure, it's the RFU publication. Another example is Martin Offiah. He was on celebrity "Pointless" on Friday, not Kevin Sinfield, not Sam Tomkins, Martin Offiah who hasn't played since the late nineties. He remains a media star from those days.
We did get poor crowds for RL in the late sixties and seventies but after the 1982 tour they picked up. Between 1985 and the start of SL it genuinely looked as though we were on the same planet as the Aussies. Since then we've fallen away again.

[Johnoco]

I know, sorry didn't read it that way, didn't mean to give the impression I had in my reply. Was just pointing out that even going into the Wigan game with momentum from the Cas game, it didn't seem to bump the crowd up, but those that went, really made the most of it.

No, I knew what you meant but didn't want it to look like an attack on any single club, it was just an example I thought of in relation to Wellsy 's point.

[shrek]

Since then we've fallen away again.

Without wanting to wonder massively off topic, I remain convinced that the lack of Union converts played a part in that after there switch to professionalism, which would have happened Super League or no Super League.

[Johnoco]

Rugby Post isn't obscure, it's the RFU publication. Another example is Martin Offiah. He was on celebrity "Pointless" on Friday, not Kevin Sinfield, not Sam Tomkins, Martin Offiah who hasn't played since the late nineties. He remains a media star from those days.
We did get poor crowds for RL in the late sixties and seventies but after the 1982 tour they picked up. Between 1985 and the start of SL it genuinely looked as though we were on the same planet as the Aussies. Since then we've fallen away again.

Only Rugby people will have heard of Rugby Post, to all intents and purposes its an obscure mag.
And the fact that the BBC are happy to use someone like Offiah (nothing wrong with him) instead of current players shows their bias.

Why won't you accept that the era in which Offiah et al became famous has long gone and we live in a different day and age? Grandstand is long gone.

[Trojan]

Only Rugby people will have heard of Rugby Post, to all intents and purposes its an obscure mag.
And the fact that the BBC are happy to use someone like Offiah (nothing wrong with him) instead of current players shows their bias.

Why won't you accept that the era in which Offiah et al became famous has long gone and we live in a different day and age? Grandstand is long gone.

Whether it's an obscure mag or not, it was on sale at Smiths at Liverpool Street Station, and Open Rugby and Rugby Leaguer were not. (this was 1985) The point I was trying to make was that Schofield and Hanley were nationally known names. Tomkins and Sinfield, Burrow and Charnley are all great players but no one much outside the RL heartlands has heard of them. When Hanley was moving from Wigan to Leeds and Offiah from Widnes to Wigan, I was working in Nottinghamshire. My workmates knew of my interest in RL and could discuss the moves sensibly with me. I bet that wouldn't be the case today.
Sure Offiah is a name from the past, and he is an ex Union player, but he made his name playing RL and was announced as "former Rugby League international" last Friday. The profile of the game, especially outside the sporting arena has shrunk. IMO that's largely down to the media's perception (rightly or wrongly) of Rugby League "belonging" to Murdoch. Nothing will convince me otherwise. He who pays the piper calls the tune! Well I'm not dancing to it. So as I said in my earlier post I'm happy to take responsibilty for not turning out at internationals. Grand and CC Finals.

[Robin Evans]

I don't go to internationals any more. I used to be a regular attender. The third live game of RL I ever saw was GB v NZ at Odsal in October 1961. Roy Evans of Wigan scored a try at the end opposite Rooley Ave. I'd been a regular every since. I saw us beat Oz at Odsal in 1978 and I saw Oz destroy us at Headingley a week later and plenty of others including Wales's gallant attempt to beat Oz at Huddersfield in 2000. But not any more. I feel the game at the top level has little to do with me any more so I don't go. The last game I went to was the 4n final at Elland Road in 2009. Same goes for Challenge Cup finals and Grand Finals. So if you want someone to take responsibilty for the state of the crowds it's me! I'll gladly take the blame.
BTW The Beatles had disbanded by the time Hanley and Schofield were playing That didn't stop Rugby Post (no less) from lauding them as the greatest Rugby players in the country, and lamenting the fact that Union's stupid amateur laws prevented them from playing for England. That was in December 1985, and I bought a copy at Liverpool Street Station London to pass the time on a train journey from there to Ipswich.

This is more or less my feelings Trojan. The way the game has gone has left me feeling detached from the game. I used to follow GB all over the place and have seen some memorable performances in an almost full wembley.Now I don't not support anything other than my club. So I too take full responsibility.... it's all my fault!

[Dave T]

This is more or less my feelings Trojan. The way the game has gone has left me feeling detached from the game. I used to follow GB all over the place and have seen some memorable performances in an almost full wembley.Now I don't not support anything other than my club. So I too take full responsibility.... it's all my fault!

GB's Wembley games attracted: 54k, 36k, 57k and 41k.
England got 41k and 66k (WC Final).

How dare RL receive money for broadcasting rights just like any other sport around.

[Steve May]

I'm not convinced tbh.

In 1994 the series did well with 140k attending the Ashes series.
In 1995 there was the World Cup which got some good crowds, but if we are honest, it was due to the novelty and England's opening match win in front of a low Wembley crowd 41k (relatively speaking).
In 1996 we had a tour to NZ and lost 3 nil.
In 1997 we had the Aussies over - another poor crowd at Wembley (the same as the WC opener) to start it, but decent crowds at OT and Elland Rd for the rest of the series.
In 1998 we had the Kiwis over and lost 2 nil (drawing the 3rd test)
In 1999 we had the first Tri-Nations in Aus/NZ (GB lost both games).

We then had the 2000 WC, we know the rest. This series of poor results had a large impact on the crowds and the test scene IMHO, but it is wrong to say that there was no continuity, GB played plenty of games (for RL) but blew almost them all.

Leading into the 2000 WC, we were in a real poor run of form, the level of expectation by fans was low. This time it feels a hell of a lot better!

There's a lot in this. The relative failure of international RL is mainly down to the ongoing failure by the players.

Until we are regularly beating credible opposition (Australia) then we'll struggle to grow the high profile international game.


There's nothing wrong with Wales v Scotland in Wrexham or England putting 80 on France at Leigh, but ultimately the only game that matters in international RL in this country is GB vs Australia. And we haven't won that when it mattered in decades.

There's your problem. All the rest is tinkering around the edges.

[JohnM]

Isn't it possible that Offiah's presence on Pointless rather than Sinfield's was as much to do with his agent as anything?

Isn't 'Tomkins and Sinfield, Burrow and Charnley are all great players but no one much outside the RL heartlands has heard of them' an opinion with no evident evidence to support it?

[Robin Evans]

GB's Wembley games attracted: 54k, 36k, 57k and 41k.
England got 41k and 66k (WC Final).

How dare RL receive money for broadcasting rights just like any other sport around.

I'm ambivalent to those facts to be honest. My fall out with the 'greater game' in 95 remains. I don't not feel inclined to follow any other aspect of RL other than my club. It's just my thoughts. I do not expect anyone else to follow suit - tho it is evident some do.

[westhuller]

Personally I miss the tours from Australia and NZ when they came over for a 3 test series and played the best clubs in The country. The magic of this has been lost due to moving to the summer game and the dilution of the international game by getting rid of GB. I follow England but its not the same for me and I can understand why people don't bother.

[Dave T]

I'm ambivalent to those facts to be honest. My fall out with the 'greater game' in 95 remains. I don't not feel inclined to follow any other aspect of RL other than my club. It's just my thoughts. I do not expect anyone else to follow suit - tho it is evident some do.

It's your choice mate, there are plenty of people who are simply interested in their home town club, always has been and always will be.

One thing I do wonder - if Featherstone do make it into SL as is their plan - how are they going to build their club, when a hardcore of the fans hate SL, Murdoch and so on with a passion?

Edited by Dave T, 19 December 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Robin Evans]

Probably as I will. Keep supporting my club... aklways will.
If the game is still managed in the same was nothing else will change in my mind. I would still advocate P&R, even if my club were a fav for the drop.... and I'd still hate Murdoch... tho not necessarily all down to his involvement in RL

[Dave T]

Probably as I will. Keep supporting my club... aklways will.
If the game is still managed in the same was nothing else will change in my mind. I would still advocate P&R, even if my club were a fav for the drop.... and I'd still hate Murdoch... tho not necessarily all down to his involvement in RL

And what about the Test scene? If Fev are a top SL team and have 4 or 5 of their players in the Four Nations?

BTW, not s**t-stirring, I'm genuinely interested!

[oldrover]

This is more or less my feelings Trojan. The way the game has gone has left me feeling detached from the game. I used to follow GB all over the place and have seen some memorable performances in an almost full wembley.Now I don't not support anything other than my club. So I too take full responsibility.... it's all my fault!

sorry Robin, i can't let you take all the blame. i also watched gb at every opportunity, watched all the roses games, i was in wembley for gb v oz in 1973c (i think) when there was a crowd of about 10 thousand. but now i feel no affinity with the national side, and just like you concentrate solely on my club.

[JohnM]

I managed to get to two of the recent England V France games - Hull and Salford and thoroughly enjoyed them both, despite being frozen stiff. These games have helped motivate me to attend more games than ever this coming season, too.

[MrPosh]

If you take the crowds (I am sure someone on here will have the correct figures)

1986 3 matches around 110000 (And that included MU with the old capacity)

Thats over 300000 for 7 GREAT BRITAIN matches average over 40000 a match,it would have also been at least another 10000 at both MU matches at 50/60000 + at Leeds United for the 3rd test in 1990 if the stadiums would have held more so easily there could have been another 40/50000 added to these figures meaning the average crowd would have been around 50000 + a match FACT:)))))

OK. I'll deal with 1986, because I can't be bothered to do it all.

There were just over 100,000 at the three tests. Very impressive, indeed.

However, the Old Trafford test had just over 50,000 people in attendance. The capacity of Old Trafford at the time was over 56,000.

The Elland Road test had a gate of just over 30,000. Dreadful ground though it was, it still held over 40,000 at that time.

The Central Park test had just over 20,000. The capacity at the time was about 35,000 (there were over that for the WCC game the following year).

So I make it that there were, approximately, 30,000 empty spaces at the three grounds combined in 1986.

So the fact that bigger grounds would have made an average crowd of 50,000 is a FACT, is it?

Edited by MrPosh, 19 December 2012 - 10:42 AM.

[Robin Evans]

And what about the Test scene? If Fev are a top SL team and have 4 or 5 of their players in the Four Nations?

BTW, not s**t-stirring, I'm genuinely interested!

I realise you're not strirring the brown stuff owd cock - I'd be the same Dave.... I doubt I'd change my view. We've had scottish and irish internationals in the last few years.

[Dave T]

I realise you're not strirring the brown stuff owd cock - I'd be the same Dave.... I doubt I'd change my view. We've had scottish and irish internationals in the last few years.

Fair enough mate, it's not a view that I particularly understand, but it is interesting!

[Robin Evans]

Fair enough mate, it's not a view that I particularly understand, but it is interesting!

Aye I know Dave. I am particularly disenchanted with the direction the game has been taken.Without wanting to open up the debate that has been done to death, I felt my club was 'frozen out' of SL and the withdrawal of P&R underpins my position to withdraw from every facet of the game barring Fev and some other championship clubs.