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benefit of the doubt

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#21 Shadow

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:19 AM

These give the same outcome as a League VR question,I've had this discussion on the Cross Code forum and nobody has ever been able to explain the difference:

Q1 - same as RL
Q2 - the answer will be a yes or no to a try - exactly the same as Q1 in effect
Q3 - same as RL penalty try question


At the risk of getting this shifted to the Cross Code forum....

(1) Is it a Try, yes or no tends to be used when the Ref is unable to make a judgement and needs the assistance from the TV cameras
(2) tends to be used when the used when the Ref has seen the action and is about to award the try but there may be some doubt.

Edit, having read it back... there's actually not much to debate. Have I misunderstood your question?


(4)Did it have the "ring of truth"? :P

This is only used for Lord Jonny of Toulon (may his name be blessed)

Edited by Shadow, 20 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.

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#22 bobbruce

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:24 AM

These give the same outcome as a League VR question,I've had this discussion on the Cross Code forum and nobody has ever been able to explain the difference:

Q1 - same as RL
Q2 - the answer will be a yes or no to a try - exactly the same as Q1 in
effect
Q3 - same as RL penalty try question


The key is in question 2. The ref is basically telling the video ref that he is unsure but if there was no video ref he would award the try. A bit like the refs call the Aussies have but it's all done up front.

#23 Dave T

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:29 AM

At the risk of getting this shifted to the Cross Code forum....

(1) Is it a Try, yes or no tends to be used when the Ref is unable to make a judgement and needs the assistance from the TV cameras
(2) tends to be used when the used when the Ref has seen the action and is about to award the try but there may be some doubt.

Edit, having read it back... there's actually not much to debate. Have I misunderstood your question?



This is only used for Lord Jonny of Toulon (may his name be blessed)

:) No there is no debate - I just think our approach in both games are pretty much the same, but quite a few RL fans have an issue with it and claim Union does it better, when IMHO it is almost identical.

#24 Shadow

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

Ah, I see. That makes more sense.
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#25 Dave T

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:31 AM

The key is in question 2. The ref is basically telling the video ref that he is unsure but if there was no video ref he would award the try. A bit like the refs call the Aussies have but it's all done up front.

But if a VR sees something then he will disallow it, meaning it is pretty much identical to the RL call (or the first Union question).

I remember a feature on the VR in RL a couple of years back, and it was stated that the VR and Ref engage in conversation, yet this is either minimal or muted by Sky. I've never seen Premier's coverage of a game, does it come across their with their VR being mic'd up?

#26 bobbruce

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 11:44 AM

But if a VR sees something then he will disallow it, meaning it is pretty much identical to the RL call (or the first Union question).

I remember a feature on the VR in RL a couple of years back, and it was stated that the VR and Ref engage in conversation, yet this is either minimal or muted by Sky. I've never seen Premier's coverage of a game,
does it come across their with their VR being mic'd up?


It's a small difference around the BOD and refs call system that we and the Aussies have.

What I've seen of the VR on PS you only really see the refs ask the same questions they do on Sky. You don't hear them come out with any extra information the difference is what you hear from the VR as he talks to the video controller and talks his way through the decision.

#27 Just Browny

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 12:13 PM

These give the same outcome as a League VR question,I've had this discussion on the Cross Code forum and nobody has ever been able to explain the difference:

Q1 - same as RL
Q2 - the answer will be a yes or no to a try - exactly the same as Q1 in effect
Q3 - same as RL penalty try question


Exactly, 1 and 2 serve the same purpose. Is it a try or not.

There's three questions a Union ref can ask the TMO
(1)Is it a Try, yes or no?
(2)Is there any reason why I can't award a Try?
(3)If it weren't for an act of foul play would a Try have probably been scored?


(4) I haven't seen a try for a while and can't for the life of me remember what one looks like. Shall I just give Sir Jonny a shot at goal?

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#28 Padge

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:43 PM

So basically, there will always be decisions that are not clear cut.

The NRL deal with it one way, the RFU deal with it another way. Neither organisation can stop the act of scoring from sometimes being unclear.

The RFL use the age old rule of benefit of doubt goes to the attacking side.

No matter which way any one of those 3 organisations treat the issue one side will be getting the benefit of the doubt under certain circumstances.

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#29 Shadow

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 01:54 PM

So basically, there will always be decisions that are not clear cut.

The NRL deal with it one way, the RFU deal with it another way. Neither organisation can stop the act of scoring from sometimes being unclear.

The RFL use the age old rule of benefit of doubt goes to the attacking side.

No matter which way any one of those 3 organisations treat the issue one side will be getting the benefit of the doubt under certain circumstances.

I think we may be in danger of all agreeing with each other
Must be the season of goodwill getting to us :D
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#30 keighley

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:06 PM

I think the Australians going it alone yet again regarding procedures and laws is seriously causing a difference in how the game is played between the two hemispheres and we need to be careful or we will have two games instead of one.

The RLIF should be given the power to make final decisions on such changes. Each and every league in the world can come up with ideas for change or improvement but the final decision as to whether to trial such ideas or to make them permanent changes should come from the RLIF.

#31 intheshed

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 02:31 PM

But if a VR sees something then he will disallow it, meaning it is pretty much identical to the RL call (or the first Union question).

I remember a feature on the VR in RL a couple of years back, and it was stated that the VR and Ref engage in conversation, yet this is either minimal or muted by Sky. I've never seen Premier's coverage of a game, does it come across their with their VR being mic'd up?


Re premier coverage, I don't recall the VR ever asking for input from the onfield ref in the games ive seen.

#32 my missus

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:06 PM

in the first nrl game of the coming season pound to a penny a try is scored that is a bit dodgy and the commentary team will be arguing if we had BotD that would have been given. :rolleyes:

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#33 Just Browny

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 04:45 PM

I think we may be in danger of all agreeing with each other
Must be the season of goodwill getting to us :D


Not me, Padge started a sentence with 'So'. Bloody youngsters.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.


#34 marklaspalmas

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 08:35 PM

Never mind BOTD when are we going to do away with that ultimate cop out for refs "on report". Either you saw it or you didn't ref. Take appropriate action.

#35 Padge

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:32 PM

Never mind BOTD when are we going to do away with that ultimate cop out for refs "on report". Either you saw it or you didn't ref. Take appropriate action.

Given that choice, the ref will go for I didn't see it and that's the end of it.

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#36 Keith T

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Posted 20 December 2012 - 10:58 PM

I've seen players with no-one near them go over the try line and just touch the ground with their elbow without touching the ground with the ball and a try is awarded. Minutes later in another incident the ref has asked to VR to judge if a ball has touched a blade of grass in a melee over the line.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#37 Griff

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 08:44 AM

I've seen players with no-one near them go over the try line and just touch the ground with their elbow without touching the ground with the ball and a try is awarded. Minutes later in another incident the ref has asked to VR to judge if a ball has touched a blade of grass in a melee over the line.


Is grass deemed to be part of the ground ? I can't find a definition in the laws of the game....
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#38 marklaspalmas

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 09:04 AM

Given that choice, the ref will go for I didn't see it and that's the end of it.


So scrap it then. All the games are reviewed during the following week anyway and stuff the ref missed can always be called in. Unfortunately refs can use the referral option to cop out of difficult or controversial decsions

#39 Shadow

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 10:49 AM

Again without wanting to get the thread relocated to the Cross Code Forum, the RU version is to have a Citing Commissioner specifically to look at any acts of foul play not dealt with by the Ref on the pitch.
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#40 Just Browny

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 01:22 PM

Again without wanting to get the thread relocated to the Cross Code Forum, the RU version is to have a Citing Commissioner specifically to look at any acts of foul play not dealt with by the Ref on the pitch.


As ever in union: same thing, poncier title.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.





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