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Major "players" investing money into RL.


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#61 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 03:58 PM

Sorry wellsy did'nt see the post. We have improved our on field and off field dramatically in the last 3 seasons.Apart from full time contracts and the salary cap we run our club as if its a SL club.We are in the process of upgrading our stadium to SL level.We also have increased our fan base by 36% from the season before last.Our academy levels are outstanding and we have aquired 2 worldwide sponsors for this season {which one of them never sponsored a rugby team before so thats more money we have brought into the game}. Also we have a wealthy chairman and a good investor who as publicly said if we get into SL there are other rich investors who are willing to back the club. But all that said i personally do think we would be an asset to SL with our investors and youth set ups alone.Ive watched our kids and we have some very talented youngsters and im sure in the next 10 years there will be more players like zac coming through our youth system.

None of that answered the question. "Them" and "they" aren't Featherstone. You had a little rant about the RFL being a joke and they only do what's best to suit them. So what suits them?
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#62 thundergaz

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 05:51 PM

None of that answered the question. "Them" and "they" aren't Featherstone. You had a little rant about the RFL being a joke and they only do what's best to suit them. So what suits them?


I could write an essay wellsy it's a matter of where I start but I won't bore you or anyone else with what the RFL faults as most outside and inside SL know what they are.

#63 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:55 PM

I could write an essay wellsy it's a matter of where I start but I won't bore you or anyone else with what the RFL faults as most outside and inside SL know what they are.

I'm sure you could write an essay, and I'm sure most of it would be b*llocks like most people who continually gripe about the RFL for no decent reason. If you're gonna throw out comments that the RFL is full of clowns and jesters and one day they will be all made to pay for what they have done to our game, you need to back it up.

As well as comments about fans of SL clubs being blinded and would have different opinions if they were in the lower leagues. I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder.
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#64 thundergaz

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 06:59 PM

I'm sure you could write an essay, and I'm sure most of it would be b*llocks like most people who continually gripe about the RFL for no decent reason. If you're gonna throw out comments that the RFL is full of clowns and jesters and one day they will be all made to pay for what they have done to our game, you need to back it up.

As well as comments about fans of SL clubs being blinded and would have different opinions if they were in the lower leagues. I think you need to get the chip off your shoulder.


It must be all Super in SL then? For the teams that nod and say how high do I need to jump.I will ask you the same question in the next 5 years when you go belly up like Salford and Bradford have and like alot more will do in the next 5 years.

Edited by thundergaz, 27 December 2012 - 07:11 PM.


#65 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 09:47 PM

It must be all Super in SL then? For the teams that nod and say how high do I need to jump.I will ask you the same question in the next 5 years when you go belly up like Salford and Bradford have and like alot more will do in the next 5 years.

Typical response. It's either all going wrong or it's all perfect. The RFL aren't perfect, but they're not a joke, they're not doing an awful job and I'm not sure how they're meant to be doing "what's suits them" in some kind of negative way.

Salford, Bradford and every other club that has gone/going bust recently has done so due to their own mismanagement.
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#66 Padge

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 10:05 PM

I could write an essay wellsy it's a matter of where I start but I won't bore you or anyone else with what the RFL faults as most outside and inside SL know what they are.


I ran this through Google Translator and it came back with "I really don't know but I have an illogical hatred of them anyway"

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#67 thundergaz

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Posted 27 December 2012 - 11:33 PM

I ran this through Google Translator and it came back with "I really don't know but I have an illogical hatred of them anyway"


I've got better things to do than sit here all night and type all the failures of the RFL. It would be a lot quicker to list what they have done for the game I can only think of one.

#68 Padge

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:09 AM

I've got better things to do than sit here all night and type all the failures of the RFL. It would be a lot quicker to list what they have done for the game I can only think of one.

Give us your top ten then.

You're just another chippy sulking club supporter who blames your clubs past failures on the RFL. Grow up.

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#69 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 12:32 AM

The RFL are incompetant especially since Richard Lewis left. Its not easy and I dont think anybody is saying the role of the RFL is. For me the areas that the RFL are failing in include such things-

The licence procedure was a farce and I fail to see how it has improved things when you have in the space of 2 years Salford, Bradford, Wakefield going into administration or struggling to stay alive. Then you have the Crusaders farce where Nigel Wood amongst others knew well before even Crusaders entered SL they had major problems. They was ignored. Sl is in a mess right now. Clubs making short term decisions like cutting academy teams to save money. No Sponsors as yet for Sl and the last deal was simply a poor one at best that didnt help the clubs or the game really. The handling of the licences and the running of SL has been not good enough for me. It should be the best comp with the best clubs. If clubs end up in administration and simply failed to even meet some basic business requirements they dont deserve to be in SL. SL should be something that means the best of the best. Salford, Bradford and Crusdaders hardly have done that. If there is not 14 clubs good enough then go down to 12. The running of SL for me has not been good at all. Both clubs and the RFL have wasted money and chances.

Internationals . Picking small stadiums and doing very little regards the corporate side of things for the WC etc is simply not good enough. With respect playing at Leigh, Loftus Road and Salford is not really making the International scene an attractive event for people. The RFL needs to work much harder in working with amateur and Pro clubs as well as schools etc in getting people to come to games. The game doesnt have a great network like Union or Soccer and it has to work extra hard to get decent crowds. But the corporate side of things like the WC just seems to be ignored. Thats incompetence for me. Looking after your corporate customers can result in one or more coming back and supporting the game. Maybe some of the things are why the game has gone backwards regarding the crowds at Internationals since the 1990s

Why does the Championship have bonus Points and yet the SL doesnt? There is a great divide between the SL and Championship and for me the RFL should be making sure they have the same points system and look to breaking down some of the friction between the sides. A number of Championship sides are not happy with things as can be seen with Daryll Powell, Karl Harrison and Mark Astons recent comments. I think the RFL have made some poor decisions which has helped drive friction between cetain groups in the game rather than unite them. Thats down to poor leadership and incompetence in a number of areas for me.

Why do the championship clubs often get badly treated with things like running scholarships and academy teams? Barrie John Mather forced Halifax amongst others to scrap their scholarship for no known valid reason a couple of years ago. A good friend of mine was devastated as he had spent a lot of time and effort sorting it all out. Why has the RFL not done more to ensure the championship has a reserve/u23 league? Clubs in Sl AND the Championship should be told to cut spending on the first team and use a certain amount on academy rugby. A player is injured for say 7 or 8 weeks. With no reserves how do the coaches know if he is ready or not for first team action against Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh or Sheffield? Instead of just agreeing with the clubs the RFL should tell them that they MUST run academy teams. Its totally wrong that Salford are running no U19s team. If teams dont/wont run academy teams then they dont deserve to be in SL or even the championship.

There are other areas that I dont feel the RFL have done well on but I wont bore everybody. The RFL have done many good things like with the media via Facebook, Twitter etc and such things as SLTV and playing France more often and helping the french game out, but we need a new leader to follow on fron the mainly good things that Lewis brought in with millions via Sport England that wasnt previously there and having such sponsors like Gillette and Engage. I have not been impressed with Wood or Rimmer who have had enough time to sort things out. They are incompetant and simply are not people we want to be running our game. The game needs a strong leader and a strong RFL who have a plan for the future, despite having less money for Grassroots and having other obstacles. If we are not careful we will see the game in the UK go backwards very fast. I am still waiting for what the RFL intend to do to bring our game forward not just in 2013 but in the next 5 years. At the moment there I am not optimistic the game (amateur, pro, student, grassroots etc) is going in the right direction.

#70 The Parksider

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 08:07 AM

I've got better things to do than sit here all night and type all the failures of the RFL.


I don't think any sporting body is particularly efficient and effective - even the administration bodies of top sports like Soccer are constantly criticised and villified.

When they get something right they are just doing their job, when they get something wrong it's a tirade of criticism.

But the failures of any sporting administration will reflect the failures of the game itself, and the problems they have will be problems of the game itself, but of course it's easy to dump the blame on the administrative body.

Our game has so many problems due to it being small, mainly regional, being pressurised by two bigger sports who attract it's fans and players, by a lack of money, by social changes, by a lack of resource, that list is endless and there's nothing to measure it's success or failure against, for many only whether you are happy with the game or not, and so unhappy championship club fans who aren't in Superleague will be the main body of people who rail against the RFL.

That may be "provocative" but it's agreed with above by others, If you don't like something the RFL do/have done then set it out exactly what you don't like like Lizzy above where these things can be debated. However a blanket "The RFL are totally useless" seems like a cover for a personal gripe rather than constructive criticism.

#71 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 01:37 PM

Not for the 1st time I’m in agreement with Parky. As a Rovers fan hoping to move back to Hull shortly (and who spent cash in the Rovers shop just yesterday with my missus) naturally I’m pleased enough at any talk of investment in the club I support.

However, look at the wider landscape of our sport. We’re on the brink of losing 1 of our 14 top flight clubs and at least 2 of the others are dead ducks in a competitive sense, while our game has so little wide commercial appeal that we gave away the sponsorship of our flagship league for nothing and our geographical reach could at best be described as “thin”. Much better news for our game would be cash in expansion areas and not the “grass roots up” waffle talked about on here but shiny SL teams in previously uncharted RL areas like Birmingham, Edinburgh, Bristol etc. backed by those with the confidence and belief in the game to make them work. Let’s be clear that we’re talking about nothing more than new money in old areas here and the game is not in good enough health for us to get excited about that.

And nor should it really be worth getting excited about anyway – if the league was structurally sound in the first place (which it patently isn’t, largely because the RFL are too gutless to permanently cut the apron strings of smaller teams in saturated heartland areas) then the 14 (or however many) sides would pay for themselves year-in, year-out, Grand Final season or wooden spoon. Someone wants to invest an 8 figure sum in my top flight team? Wow. We’re astute enough to have a salary cap so like I care. And while we’re on this can we stop lauding the EPL – a supremely boring hierarchical league that only 5 teams can ever win. The yardstick is NRL and we will beat football by being better than it in every sense, not mimicking its outdated ideas.

Someone said that Salford can only dream of 8,000 fans. Really? I’d suggest looking at a map of England and my knowledge of where the other 13 SL sides are based that they could realistically dream of 20,000 fans. The only thing they need is the ability to pay full cap over a period of a few years and not sit near the bottom of any hierarchical system. Rovers can probably rely on more historical hardcore support at their bottom end due to the ingrained culture of RL in Hull but how much further than 8K we can go in a 2 SL team town is very much open for debate. In any case, ingrained culture will only ever translate to how many people you have in your phone book. Featherstone, Leigh and Halifax in SL is not getting it done and nor – probably – is massive investment in HKR. New cultures need to be encouraged and created.

So am I saying I want other teams to be looked after before mine? I suppose I am. I’m comfortable knowing that however big RL gets or however much it continues to struggle to grow I’ll always have a good top flight team to follow in Hull and that will do me. Why does the game owe me more than this and why should it be tied to previous failed models?

What I’m saying more explicitly though is for us to be careful of what we wish for as partisan fans. A HKR in rude health but only due to the investment of 1 bloke won’t serve us as well as 1 Hull side in an expanded 16 league SL with better geographical scope, more fans through the turnstiles and more commercial investment as a result. This should be our goal and this I think is the point Parky was trying to make and is missed on too many RL fans for me to be confident in its future.

#72 keighley

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:44 PM

Not for the 1st time I’m in agreement with Parky. As a Rovers fan hoping to move back to Hull shortly (and who spent cash in the Rovers shop just yesterday with my missus) naturally I’m pleased enough at any talk of investment in the club I support.

However, look at the wider landscape of our sport. We’re on the brink of losing 1 of our 14 top flight clubs and at least 2 of the others are dead ducks in a competitive sense, while our game has so little wide commercial appeal that we gave away the sponsorship of our flagship league for nothing and our geographical reach could at best be described as “thin”. Much better news for our game would be cash in expansion areas and not the “grass roots up” waffle talked about on here but shiny SL teams in previously uncharted RL areas like Birmingham, Edinburgh, Bristol etc. backed by those with the confidence and belief in the game to make them work. Let’s be clear that we’re talking about nothing more than new money in old areas here and the game is not in good enough health for us to get excited about that.

And nor should it really be worth getting excited about anyway – if the league was structurally sound in the first place (which it patently isn’t, largely because the RFL are too gutless to permanently cut the apron strings of smaller teams in saturated heartland areas) then the 14 (or however many) sides would pay for themselves year-in, year-out, Grand Final season or wooden spoon. Someone wants to invest an 8 figure sum in my top flight team? Wow. We’re astute enough to have a salary cap so like I care. And while we’re on this can we stop lauding the EPL – a supremely boring hierarchical league that only 5 teams can ever win. The yardstick is NRL and we will beat football by being better than it in every sense, not mimicking its outdated ideas.

Someone said that Salford can only dream of 8,000 fans. Really? I’d suggest looking at a map of England and my knowledge of where the other 13 SL sides are based that they could realistically dream of 20,000 fans. The only thing they need is the ability to pay full cap over a period of a few years and not sit near the bottom of any hierarchical system. Rovers can probably rely on more historical hardcore support at their bottom end due to the ingrained culture of RL in Hull but how much further than 8K we can go in a 2 SL team town is very much open for debate. In any case, ingrained culture will only ever translate to how many people you have in your phone book. Featherstone, Leigh and Halifax in SL is not getting it done and nor – probably – is massive investment in HKR. New cultures need to be encouraged and created.

So am I saying I want other teams to be looked after before mine? I suppose I am. I’m comfortable knowing that however big RL gets or however much it continues to struggle to grow I’ll always have a good top flight team to follow in Hull and that will do me. Why does the game owe me more than this and why should it be tied to previous failed models?

What I’m saying more explicitly though is for us to be careful of what we wish for as partisan fans. A HKR in rude health but only due to the investment of 1 bloke won’t serve us as well as 1 Hull side in an expanded 16 league SL with better geographical scope, more fans through the turnstiles and more commercial investment as a result. This should be our goal and this I think is the point Parky was trying to make and is missed on too many RL fans for me to be confident in its future.


I get what you are saying about a league full of teams averaging 15 to 20,000 as an ideal but I don't think it's a realistic proposition. Has there ever been a team in British RL which has averaged 20,000? I don't think so.

Soccer has long ago cornered the market in the big cities, sometimes like London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham with multiple teams. RL would have suceeded beyond it's wildest dreams if we could even match the soccer Championship attendances.

I think we need to structure our league so that it can have top tier teams who can survive on attendances from 7,000 and up. Anything above that is great but it shouldn't need to have 15,000 plus crowds to compete and be profitable. We have been a largely small town game since the beginning and the opportunities to have expansion teams that can average 15,000 is a pipe dream. If we get a SL team in Wales, 10,000 is the absolute best we could hope for. London would be exstatic with 5,000 right now but there is potential for 10,000.

We face major hurdles elsewhere, Coventry have soccer and RU, Birmingham have two big soccet teams, as do Liverpool. Bristol is a possibility but even there there are two soccer teams and a RU team with top tier ambitions. Gateshead have NU, Sheffield have Sheff United and Wednesday. We should aim for niche market status in these soccer dominated areas and be happy to get 7,000 or above averages. There will never be the potential for 20,000 crowds. RL is Australia is on a level close to soccer here but we cannot hope to emulate that level of prominence.

#73 The Parksider

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 04:59 PM

I get what you are saying about a league full of teams averaging 15 to 20,000 as an ideal but I don't think it's a realistic proposition. Has there ever been a team in British RL which has averaged 20,000? I don't think so.

Soccer has long ago cornered the market in the big cities,

I think we need to structure our league so that it can have top tier teams who can survive on attendances from 7,000 and up. Anything above that is great but it shouldn't need to have 15,000 plus crowds to compete and be profitable. We have been a largely small town game since the beginning and the opportunities to have expansion teams that can average 15,000 is a pipe dream. If we get a SL team in Wales, 10,000 is the absolute best we could hope for. London would be exstatic with 5,000 right now but there is potential for 10,000.

We face major hurdles elsewhere, Coventry have soccer and RU, Birmingham have two big soccet teams, as do Liverpool. Bristol is a possibility but even there there are two soccer teams and a RU team with top tier ambitions. Gateshead have NU, Sheffield have Sheff United and Wednesday. We should aim for niche market status in these soccer dominated areas and be happy to get 7,000 or above averages. There will never be the potential for 20,000 crowds. RL is Australia is on a level close to soccer here but we cannot hope to emulate that level of prominence.


Hey great post :)

SL certainly needs to corner the city market of Wakefield asap.

#74 keighley

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:09 PM

Hey great post :)

SL certainly needs to corner the city market of Wakefield asap.


Indeed, three teams averaging 7,000 would be perfect. This is one city where soccer is not king.

#75 HKR AWAY DAYS

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 05:48 PM

I found out about this potential investment after Tony Larvin took to Twitter to hint at his apparent plan. Until Neil Hudgell announcing anything I will air on the side of caution but I am willing to give the guy a chance. Given his reported background I think it is understandable that supporters are sceptical. For me, the integrity of the club goes before any amount of money but if he is fit and proper then he gets my support like every other board member has. In saying that, this could be exactly what we've needed. The club's focus remains on youth development, for which it spends £250k-a-year, so anything that can improve that aspect of our club can only be a good thing.

#76 Old Frightful

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:02 PM

I found out about this potential investment after Tony Larvin took to Twitter to hint at his apparent plan. Until Neil Hudgell announcing anything I will air on the side of caution but I am willing to give the guy a chance. Given his reported background I think it is understandable that supporters are sceptical. For me, the integrity of the club goes before any amount of money but if he is fit and proper then he gets my support like every other board member has. In saying that, this could be exactly what we've needed. The club's focus remains on youth development, for which it spends £250k-a-year, so anything that can improve that aspect of our club can only be a good thing.

Do you mind?

Coming on this thread and having the temerity to actually discuss what it's about.

Be off with you young man.

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#77 HKR AWAY DAYS

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Posted 28 December 2012 - 06:14 PM

Well, he never actually stated, 'I am taking over the club' or words to that effect, and when pushed on this he has described those that took his comments that way as 'sensationalist'. The sneaky g!t, I like what he did there!

Edited by HKR AWAY DAYS, 28 December 2012 - 06:21 PM.


#78 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 02:19 PM

I get what you are saying about a league full of teams averaging 15 to 20,000 as an ideal but I don't think it's a realistic proposition. Has there ever been a team in British RL which has averaged 20,000? I don't think so.

Soccer has long ago cornered the market in the big cities, sometimes like London, Manchester, Liverpool and Birmingham with multiple teams. RL would have suceeded beyond it's wildest dreams if we could even match the soccer Championship attendances.

I think we need to structure our league so that it can have top tier teams who can survive on attendances from 7,000 and up. Anything above that is great but it shouldn't need to have 15,000 plus crowds to compete and be profitable. We have been a largely small town game since the beginning and the opportunities to have expansion teams that can average 15,000 is a pipe dream. If we get a SL team in Wales, 10,000 is the absolute best we could hope for. London would be exstatic with 5,000 right now but there is potential for 10,000.

We face major hurdles elsewhere, Coventry have soccer and RU, Birmingham have two big soccet teams, as do Liverpool. Bristol is a possibility but even there there are two soccer teams and a RU team with top tier ambitions. Gateshead have NU, Sheffield have Sheff United and Wednesday. We should aim for niche market status in these soccer dominated areas and be happy to get 7,000 or above averages. There will never be the potential for 20,000 crowds. RL is Australia is on a level close to soccer here but we cannot hope to emulate that level of prominence.



A good post but I have to take issue with it. In the USA you have towns with 4 pro teams (US football, baseball, basketball & ice hockey) all of whom co-exist quite happily. And do a straw poll of UK football fans and you'll find that very many of them also follow a rugby team of either code or an ice hockey team or whatever. The idea that rugby league needs to give up on the big cities and accept its current lot in smaller traditional areas certainly isn't one that I subscribe to. RL needs to get into these places and give football a run for its money. After all, it's a much better game....

....which brings me to point number 2. Pretty much everyone on this forum constantly raves about RL as "the greatest sport" etc. but then rails against expansion of any kind, whether it be in London or newer areas. It's the biggest hypocrisy of them all. Rave evangelically about RL along the M62 by all means but as soon as Cockneys or the French want a piece of the game then "Hands off! It's ours - we were here first!" It's a laughable state of affairs and really justifies the media's cold shoulder of the sport. Why should they give the GF more than a token bit of sports bulletin tail-end coverage when we seal ourselves off so happily and timidly? We want Kevin Sinfield and Sam Tomkins to get more props on SPOTY but we also want Featherstone to be given a Super League berth. We simply can't have it both ways.

Teams averaging 7K is not getting it done for a healthy, powerful and nationally important Super League. Hudgell and others have talked about 10K needed to pay full cap self-sufficiently and this should be the bare minimum target. Yes I welcome investment into Hull KR not just because it's my team but because it's a good strong club with a solid bedrock of support who can do well in and for SL in the current climate. But as RL fans we need to be thinking bigger. I will always be convinced that if the sport takes bold decisions we can see regular 20K crowds in domestic RL competition because I know what a wonderful game RL is and I also see how NRL dominates the Aussie domestic sport climate against similar competition from soccer and other sports. They chose RL because they thought it was better and then made it massive. We cornered ourselves (admittedly not through choice) and now just whimper timidly from the margins. It simply won't do.

#79 The Parksider

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:18 PM


1. Pretty much everyone on this forum constantly raves about RL as "the greatest sport" etc. but then rails against expansion of any kind, whether it be in London or newer areas. It's the biggest hypocrisy of them all. Rave evangelically about RL along the M62 by all means but as soon as Cockneys or the French want a piece of the game then "Hands off! It's ours - we were here first!"

2. Teams averaging 7K is not getting it done for a healthy, powerful and nationally important Super League. Hudgell and others have talked about 10K needed to pay full cap self-sufficiently and this should be the bare minimum target.


1. Well said. It got to the point where the idea was if any decent young players were developed down south they could all come north and join the M62 academies!! It was supposedly such a great game kids in London would be delighted to say goodbye to mum dad and mates and come up to M62 land.

We've had years of hammering London and Wales on here for struggles that M62 clubs equally have, Salford being a case in point.

People want London shut down, but now say salford should be revived.

2. The SL average is nearing 10,000 now it's just how to get the level of support that gives us that average across more clubs. Sadly it may be back to 12 clubs to do this.

#80 thundergaz

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 03:22 PM

1. Well said. It got to the point where the idea was if any decent young players were developed down south they could all come north and join the M62 academies!! It was supposedly such a great game kids in London would be delighted to say goodbye to mum dad and mates and come up to M62 land.

We've had years of hammering London and Wales on here for struggles that M62 clubs equally have, Salford being a case in point.

People want London shut down, but now say salford should be revived.

2. The SL average is nearing 10,000 now it's just how to get the level of support that gives us that average across more clubs. Sadly it may be back to 12 clubs to do this.


Parky I don't think anyone is really against expansion it's more of the way it's done. Instead of the RFL going down the right channels etc and making sure these clubs have what it takes to survive in SL they just seem to throw them in and hope it works which IMO is totally the wrong way to go about it.




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