102 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

Parky I don't think anyone is really against expansion

I disagree you can see what it's about when those who get all nasty about Catalans, Crusaders or London happen to follow clubs who could have the SL places these clubs take up.There's no other way to create expansion at top level than put it there.

[thundergaz]

I disagree you can see what it's about when those who get all nasty about Catalans, Crusaders or London happen to follow clubs who could have the SL places these clubs take up.There's no other way to create expansion at top level than put it there.

I don't mind Catalans that as turned out to be a major success for our sport. Crusaders obviously didn't work. And I'm 50/50 on London I don't know whether it's starting to work or not but it hasn't kicked off down there how we wished it would.

[keighley]

A good post but I have to take issue with it. In the USA you have towns with 4 pro teams (US football, baseball, basketball & ice hockey) all of whom co-exist quite happily. And do a straw poll of UK football fans and you'll find that very many of them also follow a rugby team of either code or an ice hockey team or whatever. The idea that rugby league needs to give up on the big cities and accept its current lot in smaller traditional areas certainly isn't one that I subscribe to. RL needs to get into these places and give football a run for its money. After all, it's a much better game....

....which brings me to point number 2. Pretty much everyone on this forum constantly raves about RL as "the greatest sport" etc. but then rails against expansion of any kind, whether it be in London or newer areas. It's the biggest hypocrisy of them all. Rave evangelically about RL along the M62 by all means but as soon as Cockneys or the French want a piece of the game then "Hands off! It's ours - we were here first!" It's a laughable state of affairs and really justifies the media's cold shoulder of the sport. Why should they give the GF more than a token bit of sports bulletin tail-end coverage when we seal ourselves off so happily and timidly? We want Kevin Sinfield and Sam Tomkins to get more props on SPOTY but we also want Featherstone to be given a Super League berth. We simply can't have it both ways.

Teams averaging 7K is not getting it done for a healthy, powerful and nationally important Super League. Hudgell and others have talked about 10K needed to pay full cap self-sufficiently and this should be the bare minimum target. Yes I welcome investment into Hull KR not just because it's my team but because it's a good strong club with a solid bedrock of support who can do well in and for SL in the current climate. But as RL fans we need to be thinking bigger. I will always be convinced that if the sport takes bold decisions we can see regular 20K crowds in domestic RL competition because I know what a wonderful game RL is and I also see how NRL dominates the Aussie domestic sport climate against similar competition from soccer and other sports. They chose RL because they thought it was better and then made it massive. We cornered ourselves (admittedly not through choice) and now just whimper timidly from the margins. It simply won't do.

It s interesting that you should reference the US sporting scene because there is a parallel model in that country which could possibly be a template for RL in the UK. That is US soccer. They have started at the grassroots and colleges and have built up a huge and enthusiastic junior and amateur base. They then founded pro teams but kept them at a realistic level, stadia in the 20,000 range are being built specifically for soccer and they are targeting many smaller cities with no NFL, baseball etc as well as the big ones, places like Columbus, Salt Lake City, San Jose and the Mexican population of Los Angeles and it seems to be working, Soccer is growing at a fast clip in the US, almost under the radar of the other behemoth sports you have mentioned.

I am not as you stated giving up on the big cities. What I am saying is that we should structure RL so that we can function and prosper on crowds of 7,000 and up and in smaller places as US soccer has done and as we are currently already positioned. Big crowds like the 75,000 that attend Man U every home game are just not possible, however desirable. If we start small and grow at whatever pace is possible we might end up with some mega clubs but that's not an option at the moment. Soccer has such an advantage in cash, TV exposure, crowds and public acceptance that I am not sure we could ever grow to rival that game.

I am not anti expansion. I welcome it. It's a shame Crusaders went bust and Gateshead and Sheffield were shafted to save other clubs and I think the new CC1 expansion is great. I hope it suceeds. The problem I have with expansion is that it is always assumed that to have expansion into SL, not so much into CC1, an existing heartlands club has to be sacrificed. I think that is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Ways should be developed to expand the size of SL by expansion without losing an existing club whether its conferences or SL and SL2 and either getting more cash from Sky and whomever else ( French TV, BBC, ESPN) or dilluting the present money to split it more ways.

I do not agree with you that we cannot spotlight our stars and have Fev in SL at the same time. I think small clubs like Fev. Cas and Widnes appeal to the casual viewer as the little engine that could, the David v Goliath syndrome and are a TV draw in their own right.

Averaging 7,000 might not suit you, but the reality is we have, in the history of our game, NEVER had a team average 20,000. It would take a massive growth of the sport to ever achieve that, desirable as it might be. If we structure the game so that it is economically feasible on gates of 7,000 and up, then we have a far greater chance of meaningful progress and expansion instead of waiting for the 20,000 ship to dock.

A comparison with NRL is difficult because they have been one of the dominant winter sports in Australia since 1908. There is no significant soccer competition. Have you ever checked out the empty stands when Aussie soccer is on TV.

Your post is an valid alternative view but I think it a tad too optomistic even for me and I am definitely cock eyed in that regard.

[keighley]

1. Well said. It got to the point where the idea was if any decent young players were developed down south they could all come north and join the M62 academies!! It was supposedly such a great game kids in London would be delighted to say goodbye to mum dad and mates and come up to M62 land.

We've had years of hammering London and Wales on here for struggles that M62 clubs equally have, Salford being a case in point.

People want London shut down, but now say salford should be revived.

2. The SL average is nearing 10,000 now it's just how to get the level of support that gives us that average across more clubs. Sadly it may be back to 12 clubs to do this.

Dead shot kean is pushing expansion and here you are advocating contraction. There has to be another way.

[The Parksider]

Dead shot kean is pushing expansion and here you are advocating contraction. There has to be another way.

There are many ways. Most ways involve various people getting variously upset upset about each of those ways.

I watched SKY sports news around 6.00.p.m.with a big spread on Leeds.

I thought if we had 12 x Leeds nothing else would much matter.

Our game would be attractive, respected, followed, played, sponsored, televised, talked about etc etc.

But petty club jealousies are far more important than the game.....

[Old Frightful]

I watched SKY sports news around 6.00.p.m.with a big spread on Leeds.

I thought if we had 12 x Leeds nothing else would much matter.

Our game would be attractive, respected, followed, played, sponsored, televised, talked about etc etc.

Wouldn't there be draws all round every week?

[The Parksider]

I'm 50/50 on London I don't know whether it's starting to work or not

Depends on how you measure it.

Measure it by attendances and it works better than 20 northern clubs and when they were winning it worked better than 28 northern clubs.

Measure it by player production and it works better than 24 northern clubs.

I'm wondering if the game in the north is working. I'm 50/50 on that.

Edited by The Parksider, 30 December 2012 - 09:56 PM.

[The Parksider]

Wouldn't there be draws all round every week?

[deluded pom?]

Parky wants one club in Hull yet advocates twelve teams in Leeds!!!!!

[The Parksider]

Parky wants one club in Hull yet advocates twelve teams in Leeds!!!!!

My twelve Leeds clubs didn't include any in hull.

[Ullman]

Well, he never actually stated, 'I am taking over the club' or words to that effect, and when pushed on this he has described those that took his comments that way as 'sensationalist'. The sneaky g!t, I like what he did there!

Hudgell has made no secret of the fact he wants to reduce his financial commitments to the club but he strikes me as a fairly shrewd character who has the best interests of Hull KR at heart. I don't believe he's so desperate that he'd hand over the asylum to the lunatics.

[HKR AWAY DAYS]

Hudgell has made no secret of the fact he wants to reduce his financial commitments to the club but he strikes me as a fairly shrewd character who has the best interests of Hull KR at heart. I don't believe he's so desperate that he'd hand over the asylum to the lunatics.

I concur. He has sacrificed a lot for the club and is as honest a chairman as I have ever seen. I am not daft enough to believe everything he says, such is his shrewdness that you elude to, but I hope he continues in an operational capacity should any major investment come into fruition. If the new investors are good enough for Hudge then they have my full support.

Edited by HKR AWAY DAYS, 02 January 2013 - 01:26 PM.

[sweaty craiq]

I too have no time for the exclusionists in our sport give me inclusion and expansion any day. We are too small to be divided and exclusive as at present.

[Wellsy4HullFC]

I too have no time for the exclusionists in our sport give me inclusion and expansion any day. We are too small to be divided and exclusive as at present.

Do you think there should have been P&R between the Championships and the Conference as well then? How come the Championship fans haven't been shouting about this matter?

[The Parksider]

We are too small to be divided and exclusive as at present.

wait whilst we have two x ten clubs for SL.

It will exclude clubs from 21 onwards and those who moan now mostly won't care if their club gets in SL2.

What's too small is that several clubs are too small to be profesional and several more too small to be semi-professional.

Clubs trying to be bigger than they are and failing and clubs dreaming of being bigger but not being able to back it up money wise.

Too many clubs after the same resources. You heard it here for the umpteenth time.

Edited by The Parksider, 02 January 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[DeadShotKeen]

Dead shot kean is pushing expansion and here you are advocating contraction. There has to be another way.

Let’s be clear though – I’m talking about expansion of the game overall but contraction in established/saturated areas to facilitate this. So me and Parky are in agreement on this issue and not at loggerheads as your statement might suggest.

In the case of the M62 corridor – and specifically at elite level – less is most definitely more for the future of rugby league.

[Old Frightful]

Back on topic and here is the man "with the money"...

Tony Larvin

Seems to be adamant it will happen.

[Griff]

Our players are not on full time contracts yet Padge they are part time like the rest of our league. It was one game too many for us we looked knackered in the final. We played in every game possible last season and with the good CC run too it was just too many games for a part time squad.

Knackered ?



They had a week off for the Challenge Cup final, Week one of the play-offs off and Week three as well. One game a fortnight since the middle of August. On the other hand, Sheffield played one more game than Fev, over the season. One less in the NRC, two more in the Play-offs.

I can't do with folk just making stuff up, just to "prove" a point .....................

[gazza77]

Knackered ?



They had a week off for the Challenge Cup final, Week one of the play-offs off and Week three as well. One game a fortnight since the middle of August. On the other hand, Sheffield played one more game than Fev, over the season. One less in the NRC, two more in the Play-offs.

I can't do with folk just making stuff up, just to "prove" a point .....................

I have to agree with TG, our players did look knackered in the final. That's no excuse however, for exactly the reasons you state.

[Griff]

I'm actually inclined to think the opposite - lack of match fitness and sharpness.

Is it significant that the only year Rovers won the GF was the year they didn't have Challenge Cup Final week off ?