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Should the RFL rename RL Nines (9s); 'Rugby 9s', and aim for the C'wealth games 2018 (?) or Olympics 2020?


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#1 HappyDave

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Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:57 PM

If they did would the IRB try to sue the RFL for supposedly not being "Rugby" ™ and Clive Woodward (Director of Sport for Team GB) whinge that Rugby League supposedly "isn't 'Rugby'"?

Edited by HappyDave, 03 January 2013 - 10:03 PM.

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#2 Methven Hornet

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 05:20 AM

Probably not, but the bodies that run the Olympics and the Commonwealths would think "rugby?", the IRB are the governing body for rugby, why is this other organisation trying to get involved.

We are a separate sport with a different name and identity. Confusing the issue isn't going to help.
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#3 gingerjon

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:04 AM

This is definitely the first thing the RFL should do after having bought The George.

Definitely.
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#4 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 07:48 AM

I honestly don't see the logic?
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#5 thirteenthman

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 09:05 AM

We are a separate sport with a different name and identity. Confusing the issue isn't going to help.


We're obviously a seperate sport, but we share a name with RU and followers of both sports refer to their own sport as rugby. The issue is confused enough as it is. If we actually did have a completely different name and identity, it would probably help.

#6 Matt J

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 10:48 AM

I honestly cant see it making. difference one way or t‘other

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#7 Tonka

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Posted 04 January 2013 - 11:14 AM

Yes, call it Rugby 9's.

Can't do any harm. It is a different sport to RL, RU and Sevens, so that's fine.

#8 HappyDave

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:19 AM

If the IRB can get away with calling Rugby Union 7s; 'Rugby 7s', then why not call Rugby League 9s; 'Rugby 9s'? ;-)

I'd say getting Nines in the Commonwealth Games and The Olympics would do RL the World of good and it would be pretty damn obvious to speccies the differences between 'Rugby 7s' and 'Rugby 9s'. B)

Edited by HappyDave, 06 January 2013 - 01:59 AM.

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#9 Methven Hornet

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

If the IRB can get away with calling Rugby Union 7s; 'Rugby 7s', then why not call Rugby League 9s; 'Rugby 9s'? ;-)

I'd say getting Nines in the Commonwealth Games and The Olympics would do RL the World of good and it would be pretty damn obvious to speccies the differences between 'Rugby 7s' and 'Rugby 9s'. B)


The point I'd make to your first sentence is that the IRB do get away with calling rugby union 'rugby'. It is the internationally recognised term used by international sporting federations such as the IOC, CGF and that other international federation (that I can't recall the name of just now, and which rugby league can't get anywhere near joining at this time).

One thing that these international bodies do insist on is that a sport is represented by one federation. You turn up asking for membership saying that we've got this sports discipline called 'rugby nines' we'd like you to consider, they'd say that the IRB is responsible for rugby, we'll speak to them.

The only way rugby league will be considered for inclusion by the general international sporting community is if it presents its game as 'rugby league', and continues to make progress in meeting the acceptance criteria. That involves continuing the efforts to expand the game in places like Africa, Asia and the Americas, holding regular international tournaments involving its member nations, and administering the international game in a reasonably open and democratic way (that last point is crucial and would almost certainly mean replacing the RLIF with a properly constituted international federation).

Essentially, then, following the vision and strategy of Richard Lewis. With Lewis gone is there anyone out there willing to develop our game internationally and gain the recognition needed? I have my concerns, but there really is no alternative to carrying out the necessary hard work. Playing around with names will not work.
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#10 gingerjon

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 05:50 PM

I'd say getting Nines in the Commonwealth Games and The Olympics would do RL the World of good


There are plenty of sports ahead of us in the queue, even for the Commonwealth Games. And, as Methven, says, the IRB is listed by the Olympics as the recognised body for 'rugby'. Rugby league has some form of associate status within the CGF but is not on the list of sports to be considered for inclusion (unlike the Olympics outside the core list of sports the Commonwealth Games has an optional secondary list and it's this list that rugby 7s is on).
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#11 HappyDave

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

Essentially, then, following the vision and strategy of Richard Lewis. With Lewis gone is there anyone out there willing to develop our game internationally and gain the recognition needed? I have my concerns, but there really is no alternative to carrying out the necessary hard work. Playing around with names will not work.


Yeah, all very good points well made.

I thought Rugby Union 7s was already played at the Commonwealth Games?
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#12 Methven Hornet

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:03 PM

Yeah, all very good points well made.

I thought Rugby Union 7s was already played at the Commonwealth Games?


Yes, sevens is one of the core sports meaning that it is played at all Commonwealth Games. There is a secondary list, optional sports I think it is called, which the chosen city's organisers can choose to include, I think, up to seven other sports for their games. I'm sure there is another limit on the number of team games as well.

There is a third list which contains, I think, 'recognised sports'. This includes sports that have been identified as having potential, but that require further development work to allow them to be considered for inclusion in the optional list.

The reason Richard Lewis was a breath of fresh air was that, as an outsider, he saw rugby league as just another sport - like, say, lawn tennis - that could be played anywhere, by anyone, and not just some cultural phenomenon restricted to selected industrial areas in a few countries. He particularly saw the potential of going down the Commonwealth Games route, not just for the quick fix of getting existing RL nations to play in a CG tournament, but because the search for recognition would force the game to develop itself in nations that made up a quarter of the world's population.

He also recognised that the RLIF was not a proper international federation, effectively being a front for Australia's control of the game, but something that the game was stuck with for the time being. I think he saw the RLEF, despite its name suggesting that it was restricted to Europe, as being an emerging international governing body. Its influence stretched beyond Europe to the Middle East, America, and even some of the African countries, and I suspect that he believed that one day, if these became fully fledged RL nations, that they would demand some sort of say in the running of the game.
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#13 gingerjon

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 07:16 PM

Apologies - error above that Methven has corrected - 7s is on the core list. I thought it was optional.

EDIT:
Men's 7s is on the core list; women's 7s is on the optional.

Edited by gingerjon, 06 January 2013 - 07:17 PM.

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#14 HappyDave

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:48 PM

Great post MH! I hope that one day RL 9s will be in the Commonwealth Games and RL does get the proper International Governing Body it needs.
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#15 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 10:05 PM

The point I'd make to your first sentence is that the IRB do get away with calling rugby union 'rugby'. It is the internationally recognised term used by international sporting federations such as the IOC, CGF and that other international federation (that I can't recall the name of just now, and which rugby league can't get anywhere near joining at this time).

One thing that these international bodies do insist on is that a sport is represented by one federation. You turn up asking for membership saying that we've got this sports discipline called 'rugby nines' we'd like you to consider, they'd say that the IRB is responsible for rugby, we'll speak to them.

The only way rugby league will be considered for inclusion by the general international sporting community is if it presents its game as 'rugby league', and continues to make progress in meeting the acceptance criteria. That involves continuing the efforts to expand the game in places like Africa, Asia and the Americas, holding regular international tournaments involving its member nations, and administering the international game in a reasonably open and democratic way (that last point is crucial and would almost certainly mean replacing the RLIF with a properly constituted international federation).

Essentially, then, following the vision and strategy of Richard Lewis. With Lewis gone is there anyone out there willing to develop our game internationally and gain the recognition needed? I have my concerns, but there really is no alternative to carrying out the necessary hard work. Playing around with names will not work.


What happens if there are more than one governing body for the same sport, e.g. Following a schism? For example, if there had been Olympic rugby 7's in 1896, there would have been two governing bodies for the same sport of rugby (the rules were effectively still the same on the pitch). Boxing and darts have different bodies at pro level.

Why cant we enter our own teams in rugby 7s under the RL equivalent of the IRB - and challenge the RU 7s teams for spots in Olympic qualifiers?

Edited by Lobbygobbler, 06 January 2013 - 10:07 PM.


#16 Shadow

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 08:42 AM

Why cant we enter our own teams in rugby 7s under the RL equivalent of the IRB - and challenge the RU 7s teams for spots in Olympic qualifiers?

Lots of reasons, but off the top of my head....

1) The Olympics are held in the summer, right in the middle of the Rugby League season, can you imagine a SuperLeague team allowing their star players to be out for the 2 weeks competition and the several weeks selection and training prior to the event.

2) The governing body (in this case the national Union) is responsible for selecting the representative side.

3) Assuming the problems above can be sorted, who's going to organise and pay for it?
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#17 RP London

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 09:23 AM

1.What happens if there are more than one governing body for the same sport, e.g. Following a schism? For example, if there had been Olympic rugby 7's in 1896, there would have been two governing bodies for the same sport of rugby (the rules were effectively still the same on the pitch). Boxing and darts have different bodies at pro level.

2.Why cant we enter our own teams in rugby 7s under the RL equivalent of the IRB - and challenge the RU 7s teams for spots in Olympic qualifiers?


1. Interesting question. with regards Boxing and Darts; Boxing is amateur rather than pro so it isnt really a relevant situation for them so i am sure it has not come up, it would be interesting to know how darts apply though i doubt it is that difficult as they dont have different rules between th PDC and BDO..

In the end though Rugby League and Rugby Union are 2 different sports, we are not one sport with 2 different governing bodies we are two different sports.

2. I would say it is impossible becuase the RFU are not entering a team, the WRU are not entereing a team, the SRU are not entering a team. The BOA is entering a team as they did for the football. Where they pick that team and who is available is technically down to the people picking and the players themselves as was the case with the football. As such RL cannot just enter a team but they could make players available for the BOA team and coach to chose.

#18 Northern Sol

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 02:06 PM

What happens if there are more than one governing body for the same sport, e.g. Following a schism? For example, if there had been Olympic rugby 7's in 1896, there would have been two governing bodies for the same sport of rugby (the rules were effectively still the same on the pitch)


Then there would have been shamaterur rugby under the RFU's supervision but no "professional rugby" players allowed. The Olympics had / has much of the same hypocrisy as rugby union.




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