343 replies to this topic

[barrowraiderskid]

Really. Did you see the Cup semi final. Not player of the season stuff.

One error out of 30 games essentially. There isn't a way you can argue Kev was more consistent than Tomkins, because the fact is he wasn't.

[keighley]

One error out of 30 games essentially. There isn't a way you can argue Kev was more consistent than Tomkins, because the fact is he wasn't.

I didn't see the game but someone commented on how bad he was against Featherstone in the cup so that would be 2 games.

The Aussies are going to crucify him if he dosn't improve.

[barrowraiderskid]

I didn't see the game but someone commented on how bad he was against Featherstone in the cup so that would be 2 games.

The Aussies are going to crucify him if he dosn't improve.

Like they crucified him last time when he was a big part in the majority of Englands tries against the Aussies?

Just a few stats for you from the SL season;


Tries: Tomkins 28 - 4 Sinfield
Try assists: Tomkins 33 - 18 Sinfield
Metres made: Tomkins 3438 - 2015 Sinfield
Clean Breaks: Tomkins 39 - 6 Sinfield
Tackle busts: Tomkins 156 - 31 Sinfield
Errors: Tomkins 28 - 27 Sinfield

It just shows Tomkins has absolutely destroyed him on nearly every stat. Sinfield only got one more fourty twenty than Tomkins in the season. The 'error prone' Tomkins has only made one error more than Sinfield.

Rightfully Tomkins was awarded Man of Steel and was selected in the dream team for oustanding performances consistently through the season. You can argue why didn't Wigan get to the GF then, well look who was sat on the sidelines during the semi versus Leeds.

[T-Dub]

Hasn;t this award always been marketed as the World Player of the Year? If so - why are people now using phrases like your last one?

TBH, if LPL feel that Sinfield is the best player in the world this year, just say so and allow people to discuss it. An issue I have with this is that people are playing politics with the wording of what this award is for - 'best contribution'??? Why is it no longer 'International Player of the Year' - which incidentally LPL still advertise it as?

Call it that then, call it what you want. We all know what its for apart for the people throughout this thread who have queried whether it was a cumulative thing, or a talent thing etc, which it is neither

My broader point is LPL have invested heavily in promoting the International Player of The Year award and ceremony, which teh sport as a whole should be proud of and grateful for, only to find people who have little clue about what it entails running it down on the basis of not agreeing with the decision.

If you dont agree with the decision fair enough but dont run the award itself down

[Dave T]

Call it that then, call it what you want. We all know what its for apart for the people throughout this thread who have queried whether it was a cumulative thing, or a talent thing etc, which it is neither

My broader point is LPL have invested heavily in promoting the International Player of The Year award and ceremony, which teh sport as a whole should be proud of and grateful for, only to find people who have little clue about what it entails running it down on the basis of not agreeing with the decision.

If you dont agree with the decision fair enough but dont run the award itself down

Im not running the award down btw I agree with the bulk of the post. I think most do care about the award hence the debate.

You state that most understand what it is, yet that is absolutely not true. Ask anyone and they would say it is for the best player in the world that year, its also how it reads on LPL website, yet it would appear people are trying ti change what the award is.

People genuinely are interested in it, and wanting to understand what it is for and who is on the panel (things appear to have changed this year) is not unreasonable at all.

Edited by Dave T, 07 January 2013 - 06:33 PM.

[fieldofclothofgold]

Its getting rather venomous now,maybe Kevin Sinfield should consider giving back the award

Edited by fieldofclothofgold, 07 January 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[keighley]

Like they crucified him last time when he was a big part in the majority of Englands tries against the Aussies?

Just a few stats for you from the SL season;


Tries: Tomkins 28 - 4 Sinfield
Try assists: Tomkins 33 - 18 Sinfield
Metres made: Tomkins 3438 - 2015 Sinfield
Clean Breaks: Tomkins 39 - 6 Sinfield
Tackle busts: Tomkins 156 - 31 Sinfield
Errors: Tomkins 28 - 27 Sinfield

It just shows Tomkins has absolutely destroyed him on nearly every stat. Sinfield only got one more fourty twenty than Tomkins in the season. The 'error prone' Tomkins has only made one error more than Sinfield.

Rightfully Tomkins was awarded Man of Steel and was selected in the dream team for oustanding performances consistently through the season. You can argue why didn't Wigan get to the GF then, well look who was sat on the sidelines during the semi versus Leeds.

I watched the last four nations and it was the first time I had ever seen Tomkins play and it was the first thing I noticed about his game that he was weak under a high ball, either not getting there or letting it bounce or going up and completely misjudging it in the air. He is am amazing attacking player and a top talent but he has this weakness in his game. He gets away with it for the most part when playing for Wigan as they are usually dominant and he is not pressured too much but at international level, he is targetted and exposed. I get no pleasure from pointing this out as I want Tomkins and England to excel in the WC but it is what it is.

[giwildgo]

I've a lot of time for Tomkins, however the one occasion last season when I saw him play for his club, at Fev, he was ######. Especially under the high ball, and his behaviour at Wembley in 2011 was outrageous.

Every player has a bad game from time to time. Sinfield had the best part of a dozen bad ones last year, but people remember the two or three great ones where he hit top form. As a rugby talent - Tomkins is streets ahead in ability and impact, as a mature adult and leader of men Sinfield is streets ahead. Apples and oranges. I personally think the best player is the most valuable player to a team. Leeds without Sinfield in my view are still a 4th/5th place league team and an outside chance in the playoffs and a good chance in the Challenge Cup. Wigan without Tomkins drop from 1st / 2nd and in the hunt for all trophies to 4th/5th on the league ladder and having no chance of winning the GF (see GF eliminator in his absence in 2012) or Challenge Cup.

As much as I respect Sinfield, at no point in his career would I have straight swapped for Tomkins. The great Leeds team is built on a 'team' ethic and a never say die attitude that is not exclusive to Sinfield, despite him being their leader. I do feel over the course of his career that Sinfield has been slightly underrated and overshadowed by the contributions of teammates such as McGuire, Burrow, Peacock, Buderus, Senior, Hall, etc. However the hyperbole in 2012 has tipped the balance towards overrating him at the expense of the quality of his teammates.

[giwildgo]

I watched the last four nations and it was the first time I had ever seen Tomkins play and it was the first thing I noticed about his game that he was weak under a high ball, either not getting there or letting it bounce or going up and completely misjudging it in the air. He is am amazing attacking player and a top talent but he has this weakness in his game. He gets away with it for the most part when playing for Wigan as they are usually dominant and he is not pressured too much but at international level, he is targetted and exposed. I get no pleasure from pointing this out as I want Tomkins and England to excel in the WC but it is what it is.

In the same way that Tomkins isn't elite under the high ball (although far from the worst FB in SL), Sinfield has defensive weaknesses - he has been known to make poor reads from marker defence, whilst his lateral movement, speed and decision making in the defensive line have been exposed in SL on numerous occasions.

[giwildgo]

question on the award itself .
is it for the best player in the world or the player of most importance to a team because the best player is not always the most important player to a team

If it there was an award for Leeds to win Team of the Year, then you wouldn't get an argument from me. Irrespective of my thoughts on the playoff system and the league comp, you can't argue with the cumulative effects of WCC and GF wins together with a CC runner up. But Sinfield as good a leader as he is, would be lucky to make an objective top 20 of best individual player during SL 2012.

[barrowraiderskid]

I watched the last four nations and it was the first time I had ever seen Tomkins play and it was the first thing I noticed about his game that he was weak under a high ball, either not getting there or letting it bounce or going up and completely misjudging it in the air. He is am amazing attacking player and a top talent but he has this weakness in his game. He gets away with it for the most part when playing for Wigan as they are usually dominant and he is not pressured too much but at international level, he is targetted and exposed. I get no pleasure from pointing this out as I want Tomkins and England to excel in the WC but it is what it is.

He's has I think 5 bad games under the high ball in the last 2 years but that's it, every other game he has been the most exciting player England have had this century.

The stats basically speak for themselves. I think Wigan scored around 180 tries last year, Tomkins played a major part with at least 60 of them. That's a third of their tries which is some feat.

You can pick out lots of flaws in Sinfields game which have already been pointed out. Its been statistically proven he wasn't the best player over the domestic season and the opinion is shared by Leeds Rhinos, the judges of the SL dream team and whoever picked man of steel and whoever picked world team of the year.

Btw the credibility of the award still stands, the names of the list are of such a high honour. Any RL player present and future would be honoured to receive the award and be associated with such names.

[Storm]

Internationally Sinfield did all he could, the Aussies or Kiwis won't play, nothing he can do.

He can't play origin it isn't open to him, and we have no equivelent.

Domestically he lead his team to 2 finals, his play offs was special and with out his performances, Leeds would not have won the Super League.

On the downside, I do wish RLW & LPL would release the voting data.

[southstand loiner]

Which wouldn't go to Sinfield as he was only oustanding towards 4 or 5 games of the latter part of the season not the full domestic season like you state.

If it was for effort in the full season then he shouldn't even come close. Tomkins had a much better and consistent season than Sir Kev.

only outstanding at the end of the season ?.

you seem o forget the start of the season when he put he aussie champions in there place and the ccup semi final in midseason in which he was outstanding as well as a lot of other games .

tomkins did indeed have a good season but when the big games came around he was not really a stand out player was he .

[fieldofclothofgold]

only outstanding at the end of the season ?.

you seem o forget the start of the season when he put he aussie champions in there place and the ccup semi final in midseason in which he was outstanding as well as a lot of other games .

tomkins did indeed have a good season but when the big games came around he was not really a stand out player was he .

I also think the WCC effort has a bit to do with Leeds indifferent form for awhile after this fixture

Edited by fieldofclothofgold, 08 January 2013 - 12:04 AM.

[1jordy]

only outstanding at the end of the season ?.

you seem o forget the start of the season when he put he aussie champions in there place and the ccup semi final in midseason in which he was outstanding as well as a lot of other games .

I haven't forgot the average regular season he had in which Tomkins put him in his place statistically and the poor Cup Final he had,

You really think the WCC was what swayed it for him, a team in the middle of their regular season at pretty much full fitness on home territory face a team in their pre season at not match fitness after a 6 month break after a 24 hour Flight to a usually wet and different climate than Australias, does this game really mean anything when 1 side play it as a trial game, play the game during both the Super League and the NRL season on Neutural territory and maybe I might take his game seriously, I was stunned when my team went over there and beat Wigan in 2011 considering it was their first game in 6 months and their head coach didn't even make the trip over to England, which in

hindsight was a horrible result for Wigan.

Edited by 1jordy, 08 January 2013 - 02:32 AM.

[southstand loiner]

Like they crucified him last time when he was a big part in the majority of Englands tries against the Aussies?

Just a few stats for you from the SL season;


Tries: Tomkins 28 - 4 Sinfield
Try assists: Tomkins 33 - 18 Sinfield
Metres made: Tomkins 3438 - 2015 Sinfield
Clean Breaks: Tomkins 39 - 6 Sinfield
Tackle busts: Tomkins 156 - 31 Sinfield
Errors: Tomkins 28 - 27 Sinfield

It just shows Tomkins has absolutely destroyed him on nearly every stat. Sinfield only got one more fourty twenty than Tomkins in the season. The 'error prone' Tomkins has only made one error more than Sinfield.

Rightfully Tomkins was awarded Man of Steel and was selected in the dream team for oustanding performances consistently through the season. You can argue why didn't Wigan get to the GF then, well look who was sat on the sidelines during the semi versus Leeds.

here we go with stats that in the end mean nothing much. i seem to remember alker getting all sorts of stats awards via opta but all it meant was he was doing all the hard work because he had to .

do you have stats for

most times direction of the attack changed by a player
most times tempo of game changed by a player
most try scoring attacks set up by a player ( not final pass )
best goal percentage by a player
most goals
most drop goals
most metres made by kicks
most tackle assists
most metres made covering across in defence
percentage of errors per game

if not then the selective stats you quote mean nothing much at all as all your stats apart from the error count refer only to attacking play . you may note i ask for the error count to be listed on a percentage basis due to the difference in number of games played between the players you mention and can you also give the tackle counts of both players please.

as i say stats can be made to prove whatever you want them to depending which you want to use..

Edited by southstand loiner, 08 January 2013 - 11:43 AM.

[southstand loiner]

I haven't forgot the average regular season he had in which Tomkins put him in his place statistically and the poor Cup Final he had,

You really think the WCC was what swayed it for him, a team in the middle of their regular season at pretty much full fitness on home territory face a team in their pre season at not match fitness after a 6 month break after a 24 hour Flight to a usually wet and different climate than Australias, does this game really mean anything when 1 side play it as a trial game, play the game during both the Super League and the NRL season on Neutural territory and maybe I might take his game seriously, I was stunned when my team went over there and beat Wigan in 2011 considering it was their first game in 6 months and their head coach didn't even make the trip over to England, which in

hindsight was a horrible result for Wigan.

oh get over it and face up to the fact that your lot wont take up the offer made by a number of english clubs and play the game in your own country because you scared of losing at home

[Southstander13]

here we go with stats that in the end mean nothing much. i seem to remember alker getting all sorts of stats awards via opta but all it meant was he was doing all the hard work because he had to .

do you have stats for

most times direction of the attack changed by a player
most times tempo of game changed by a player
most try scoring attacks set up by a player ( not final pass )
best goal percentage by a player
most goals
most drop goals
most metres made by kicks
most tackle assists
most metres made covering across in defence
percentage of errors per game

if not then the selective stats you quote mean nothing much at all as all your stats apart from the error count refer only to attacking play . you may note i ask for the error count to be listed on a percentage basis due to the difference in number of games played between the players you mention and can you also give the tackle counts of both players please.

as i say stats can be made to prove whatever you want them to depending which you want to use..

Was going to say the same!

Its easy to pick stats that back up your opinion, such as:

Tackles - Sinfield 522, Tomkins 111
Marker Tackles - Sinfield 86, Tomkins 10
Attacking Kicks - Sinfield 123, Tomkins 30

not to mention the things you also asked such as most tries set up by a player (not assists).

For a start they play different positions and have different roles within their teams, you cant really compare like for like. Tomkins will hammer Sinfield in some stats, and it works the other way for other stats. What Sinfield has achieved this year is outstanding, and those that watch Leeds every week can see the influence he has on each and every game.

To say he was only outstanding for the last 4 or 5 games this season just proves you have no clue about how good he actually is, and you didnt see much of Leeds last year!

[terrywebbisgod]

1jordy,the WCC was played in February,2 games into the season,Manly were here for at least a week before the game,training every day.Maybe a little more research is in order for you.

Edited by terrywebbisgod, 08 January 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[southstand loiner]

The WCC was in February two games into the season.Manly were here for at least a week acclimatizing.You need to do more research.

i think he means his team st george who made there own choice not to come over to early but in fact came 7 days before the game and had played 3 preseason games in australia before they came over .
lets face it a preseaon game against any australian opposition would be more than enough to prepare themselves for a game against wigan in his world im sure