163 replies to this topic

[southstand loiner]

Its just another attempt to try and beat the big clubs with a little stick.

It really is tiresome.

the truth is unless a club has a lucky season then of the 10 or so young players they sign they will be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 that will in the end make the grade with them so how are they supposed to run an academy team without wastage even though a lot of the so called waste finds championship clubs or community clubs to join

[The Parksider]

the opposite. we need to put more effort on increasing the total number of kids playing the sport to a level that makes running pro-Academy structures sustainable.

Take the NW - Widnes, Warrington, Salford, Wigan, St. Helens all taking 20 - 30 lads of each age group away from the amateur game per annum. There is no way on earth that all of them would flow into the pro game and many were being recruited into the structures to make up the numbers. Their expactations were over-optimistically raised and then many felt used by the sport so quit the sport.

Worse, was that many junior sides might only have 15 - 20 players and if they lose 5/6 to a scholarship system (and with so many pro-sides and so few jenuio sides this was happening!) the junior side might struggle each week to put a side out; so then even more players are pushed out of the game as individual junior sides struggle to be viable.

the system was not working - the result was less young players playing the game!

have 20+ more sides at each age group and it might have been sustainable to run so many Academy and Scholarship structures. Until we have that volume of kids in the game it's not vaible to keep dragging lads into 'talent pathways'. That is as much a reason for the reforms as it was cost-cutting by the pro-ranks.

so my point is, we can only run those type of structures as a sport IF we concentrate more time, effort and resource of increasing junior participation. we just need Sport England to recognise it now!

A very interesting and informative post.

You say "take the NW - Widnes, Warrington, Salford, Wigan, St. Helens all taking 20 - 30 lads of each age group away from the amateur game per annum".

What about West Yorkshire?, take Cas, Wakey, Leeds, Bradford, Fartown all dragging 20-30 lads a year out of junior RL then Featherstone, Halifax and Sheffield joining in, up to 200+ lads a year being taken away from the amateur game.

How many actually make it??

This kid in the OP is a Wakey kid, how many Wakefield lads have made it into Superleague since wakey came into SL in 1999?? How many Wakefield lads are playing SL regularly now? The numbers will surprise many on here.

You can add academies at Batley, Keighley, Hunslet, Dewsbury and York and you can add more teams at each age level until your blue in the face with so called budding SL stars, but until more kids take up the game all your doing is increasing the numbers of rejects and stuffing up amateur clubs youth teams.

We don't need more academies in the same area, we need academies in London. Wales, Cumbria etc.

When we were full of Aussies the cry on here was get rid of them and allow the British talent to come through. But it's not there, there's a significant player shortage, Lamont Bryan has just signed for Fev saying he's had offers from SL clubs. This lad didn't make it with the supposedly gord awful Broncos? Why would any SL club want him? Why do HKR want Omari Caro? Don't they produce brilliant wingers from the hotbed of RL any more?

People come on here and play the attendances game - it makes sense to have the best supported clubs in SL, Broncos are a waste of space. Maybe they would be if the north wasn't desperately in need of lads from London Cumbria and Wales to develop to make up the quality player shortfall.

Sheffield for SL? Leigh for SL? Where are they going to find players when established big clubs like Wakefield or Bradford can't stock their sides locally from an amateur game established for well over 100 years???

Edited by The Parksider, 05 January 2013 - 11:15 PM.

[The Parksider]

the truth is unless a club has a lucky season then of the 10 or so young players they sign they will be lucky to get more than 2 or 3 that will in the end make the grade with them so how are they supposed to run an academy team without wastage even though a lot of the so called waste finds championship clubs or community clubs to join

Your a highly knowledgeable guy.

Since Gary Hetherington led the way and announced Leeds would produce their own players something like 12 years ago how many lads a year do you think made it through the Leeds system to be regular top class pro's? i.e the best system.

Edited by The Parksider, 05 January 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[keighley]

Probably the bit that says someone else has to pay for it because the game can't afford to itself. That's not really such a great admission to make is it?

I said we probably had to cut the junior teams because the clubs couldn t afford them so Padge comes on and intimates that I was against cutting the teams even though I have, as he says, on other posts advocated SL cutting costs so that they can remain solvent on the income they receive. He obviously either didn t understand or didn t properly read what I wrote, namely that the abolition of the junior teams most probably had to be done because of the need to cut costs. I never said anybody else had to pay for anything so I don t understand what you are saying.

[keighley]

A very interesting and informative post.

You say "take the NW - Widnes, Warrington, Salford, Wigan, St. Helens all taking 20 - 30 lads of each age group away from the amateur game per annum".

What about West Yorkshire?, take Cas, Wakey, Leeds, Bradford, Fartown all dragging 20-30 lads a year out of junior RL then Featherstone, Halifax and Sheffield joining in, up to 200+ lads a year being taken away from the amateur game.

How many actually make it??

This kid in the OP is a Wakey kid, how many Wakefield lads have made it into Superleague since wakey came into SL in 1999?? How many Wakefield lads are playing SL regularly now? The numbers will surprise many on here.

You can add academies at Batley, Keighley, Hunslet, Dewsbury and York and you can add more teams at each age level until your blue in the face with so called budding SL stars, but until more kids take up the game all your doing is increasing the numbers of rejects and stuffing up amateur clubs youth teams.

We don't need more academies in the same area, we need academies in London. Wales, Cumbria etc.

When we were full of Aussies the cry on here was get rid of them and allow the British talent to come through. But it's not there, there's a significant player shortage, Lamont Bryan has just signed for Fev saying he's had offers from SL clubs. This lad didn't make it with the supposedly gord awful Broncos? Why would any SL club want him? Why do HKR want Omari Caro? Don't they produce brilliant wingers from the hotbed of RL any more?

People come on here and play the attendances game - it makes sense to have the best supported clubs in SL, Broncos are a waste of space. Maybe they would be if the north wasn't desperately in need of lads from London Cumbria and Wales to develop to make up the quality player shortfall.

Sheffield for SL? Leigh for SL? Where are they going to find players when established big clubs like Wakefield or Bradford can't stock their sides locally from an amateur game established for well over 100 years???

You come back to this red herring time and time again. The game needs and gets kids in numbers from Cumbria and some from Wales both places, as you say, despite having no SL teams but when it comes to London there is a need for A SL club in order to sustain the player production. This flies in the face of the very facts you are stating regarding player production from Wales and Cumbria and , indeed, some from the Midlands.

[The Parksider]

You come back to this red herring time and time again. The game needs and gets kids in numbers from Cumbria and some from Wales both places, as you say, despite having no SL teams but when it comes to London there is a need for A SL club in order to sustain the player production. This flies in the face of the very facts you are stating regarding player production from Wales and Cumbria and , indeed, some from the Midlands.

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from Cumbria? Go on then how many have made it and are playing today from a whole county with 100 years of history of the game being a major sport there??

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from Wales? Go on then how many have made it from a whole country and are playing SL today??

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from the Midlands? Go on then how many have made it from the middle third of England and are playing SL today??

We've had 17 years of a free gangway.

Start putting some facts together to back your argument

Edited by The Parksider, 06 January 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[JohnM]

http://www.therfl.co...eads-down-under

How can anyone who has the opportunity to forge a career in a country where RL has the highest sporting status be described as a victim? As Agar says," it is a fantastic opportunity as a rugby point of view as well as a lifestyle point of view for him to take up."

[shun]

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from Cumbria? Go on then how many have made it and are playing today from a whole county with 100 years of history of the game being a major sport there??

Elliot Miller- Champ
Ade Gardner-SL
Matt Gardner-Champ
Ryan Shaw-SL Academy
Craig Calvert-Champ
Peter Lupton-champ
Liam Campbell-champ
Kyle Amor-SL
Shaun Lunt-SL
Lee Mossop-SL
Oliver Wilkes-SL
Liam Harrison-Champ
Ben Harrison-SL

Graeme Mattison-Champ
Brad Singleton-SL
Ewan Dowes-Champ
Andrew Dawson-Champ
Countless more young cumbrians in sl academies at the moment, couple of class SL players there! Cumbria doesn't do to bad, considering that the population of the player pool is less than a quarter the size of Leeds on its own.

Edited by shun, 06 January 2013 - 11:27 AM.

[Padge]

Elliot Miller- Champ
Ade Gardner-SL
Matt Gardner-Champ
Ryan Shaw-SL Academy
Craig Calvert-Champ
Peter Lupton-champ
Liam Campbell-champ
Kyle Amor-SL
Shaun Lunt-SL
Lee Mossop-SL
Oliver Wilkes-SL
Liam Harrison-Champ
Ben Harrison-SL

Graeme Mattison-Champ
Brad Singleton-SL
Ewan Dowes-Champ
Andrew Dawson-Champ
Countless more young cumbrians in sl academies at the moment, couple of class SL players there! Cumbria doesn't do to bad, considering the the population of the player pool is less than a quarter the size of Leeds on its own.

1 per year

[shun]

1 per year

something like that. proberbly the 3 best or well known players Mossop, Amor and Lunt all came through the west cumbria academy (i think) when it was running.

[southstand loiner]

Your a highly knowledgeable guy.

Since Gary Hetherington led the way and announced Leeds would produce their own players something like 12 years ago how many lads a year do you think made it through the Leeds system to be regular top class pro's? i.e the best system.

well at leeds i would guess the average would be 2 to 3 per season but of course they dont all stay at leeds as can be seen by the likes of diskin,walker and mathers who of course now play for other clubs. last season only stevie ward stepped up from the academy at least on a regular basis although mcshane did move to widnes for the season as a regular first teamer there .
the coming season i would expect to see around 3 young leeds players push there way into the super league although one of them will of course be loaned out to wakefield to achive this . but liam hood and jordan baldwinson i recon will get some game time this year.

[shaun mc]

1 per year

Add Brett Carter and Brett Phillips who played for Scotland recently. That list is also current players only disregarding the others from previous years such as Rob Purdham et al who are no longer playing. the above isn,t a bad team - should be used in some sort of representative capacity, like playing England Knights.

[Padge]

Add Brett Carter and Brett Phillips who played for Scotland recently. That list is also current players only disregarding the others from previous years such as Rob Purdham et al who are no longer playing. the above isn,t a bad team - should be used in some sort of representative capacity, like playing England Knights.

I was being generous, the original question was SL players, adding a couple more Championship players doesn't make a lot of difference.

[shaun mc]

So those who are good enough to play international RL don't count? Nor do those that have been at SL academies? e.g Miller. Lupton was at London and Crusaders as well.

Don't think you are being generous at all - deliberately classing a current playing rosta of 19 players as the whole Cumbrian production line in 17 years of SL isn't being generous IMO.

(Can't insert a smiley to this post btw)

[Padge]

So those who are good enough to play international RL don't count? Nor do those that have been at SL academies? e.g Miller. Lupton was at London and Crusaders as well.

Don't think you are being generous at all - deliberately classing a current playing rosta of 19 players as the whole Cumbrian production line in 17 years of SL isn't being generous IMO.

(Can't insert a smiley to this post btw)

So those who are good enough to play international RL don't count? Nor do those that have been at SL academies? e.g Miller. Lupton was at London and Crusaders as well.

Don't think you are being generous at all - deliberately classing a current playing rosta of 19 players as the whole Cumbrian production line in 17 years of SL isn't being generous IMO.

(Can't insert a smiley to this post btw)

Go back to the original question asked, I didn't ask it, the list provided as an answer to that question included a lot of none SL professional players. The question wasn't about England 'A' teamers or Scottish internationals. If the asker of the original question wants to re-phrase it then that is up to him. He was fairly specific though.

So my 1 per year was being generous as per the original question.

Have a smiley on me

Edited by Padge, 06 January 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[shun]

So those who are good enough to play international RL don't count? Nor do those that have been at SL academies? e.g Miller. Lupton was at London and Crusaders as well.

Don't think you are being generous at all - deliberately classing a current playing rosta of 19 players as the whole Cumbrian production line in 17 years of SL isn't being generous IMO.

(Can't insert a smiley to this post btw)

All of them cumbrian players apart from ,dawson, calvert, mattinson and liam harrison have played at super league level or have been part of super league academies.

[Griff]

talk of wastage is very over the top as most of those who do not make it with a professional team tend to join local community clubs as we are now supposed to call them.
as someone who watches a lot of local rugby league in the leeds area nearly every week i see young players who have not made the grade at pro clubs playing for there local teams such as east leeds or hunslet warriors ect

Is that a role for the pro clubs ? Is providing better quality players for the amateur game something that they should pay for ?

At community club level, players play for their own amusement. It doesn't matter if they're any good - as long as they enjoy themselves.

However - on a related point - there is an argument that the $uperleague Academy sides produce enough players to fill up spare recruitment places for CC and CC1 sides. I'd be interested to have some stats on how many players are recruited from $uperleague rejects and how many come from CC development - in the few remaining instances where they actually have one, obviously.

That is, of course, notwithstanding my point that ambitious CC sides should be allowed to have development teams so that they can make the step up to $uperleague, if invited to do so.

[Padge]

All of them cumbrian players apart from ,dawson, calvert, mattinson and liam harrison have played at super league level or have been part of super league academies.

Being in an SL academy isn't playing at SL level, its playing at, well erm, academy level. I refer you to the original question posed by Parky.

[shaun mc]

Padge, still can't see how you can equate a current list of Cumbrian players, most of whom have been at SL clubs to the sum total of 17 years of development during the SL timeframe but hey-ho.

The conversion ratio of kids from Cumbria to top level players does need looking at. Recently, a number of the community clubs representaive teams and squads have included a good proportion of Cumbrian players. For example, 11 out of 28 recently named squad for the BARLA 2013 tour of Australia are from Cumbria. How does that talent pool get nutured and developed properly?

Edited by shaun mc, 06 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.

[The Parksider]

1 per year

The question was how many Cumbrian lads have made it into current Superleague first seventeens.

The answer is much less than one per year