163 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

Elliot Miller- Champ
Ade Gardner-SL
Matt Gardner-Champ
Ryan Shaw-SL Academy
Craig Calvert-Champ
Peter Lupton-champ
Liam Campbell-champ
Kyle Amor-SL
Shaun Lunt-SL
Lee Mossop-SL
Oliver Wilkes-SL
Liam Harrison-Champ
Ben Harrison-SL

Graeme Mattison-Champ
Brad Singleton-SL
Ewan Dowes-Champ
Andrew Dawson-Champ
Countless more young cumbrians in sl academies at the moment, couple of class SL players there! Cumbria doesn't do to bad, considering that the population of the player pool is less than a quarter the size of Leeds on its own.

You have only given me six actual Superleague first XV11 players and you have also had to add in Barrow lads to get it to six.

Pontefract is a bigger hot bed of SL professionals than the whole of Cumbria.

Any idea why this may be?

Edited by The Parksider, 06 January 2013 - 12:11 PM.

[shun]

The question was how many Cumbrian lads have made it into current Superleague first seventeens.

The answer is much less than one per year

well there is 10 on that list of cumbrian players above that have played super league, im sure there is alot more from the past 17 years

Edited by shun, 06 January 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Padge]

Padge, still can't see how you can equate a current list of Cumbrian players, most of whom have been at SL clubs to the sum total of 17 years of development during the SL timeframe but hey-ho.

The conversion ratio of kids from Cumbria to top level players does need looking at. Recently, a number of the community clubs representaive teams and squads have included a good proportion of Cumbrian players. For example, 11 out of 28 recently named squad for the BARLA 2013 tour of Australia are from Cumbria. How does that talent pool get nutured and developed properly?

Oh FFS, Parky asked how many Cumbrian youngsters had been converted to SL level playing pros. A list of 17 was provided, some of which had never been at an SL club and others who had merely been at SL academies.

I ignored the fact that many had never played at SL level and offered the figure of 1 per year (without comment).

Now if Parky meant how many had been signed by SL clubs that's for him to clarify, however if that's what he meant we are still short of 1/year

Edited by Padge, 06 January 2013 - 12:12 PM.

[Padge]

im sure there is alot more from the past 17 years

Well list them then, and settle the bloody argument.

[The Parksider]

11 out of 28 recently named squad for the BARLA 2013 tour of Australia are from Cumbria. How does that talent pool get nutured and developed properly?

By playing at the highest level they can which may be by going on tour to Australia??

Do we then expect the 11 lads to end up in the first teams of SL clubs in the next few years??

Also why if these are great young RL players are they not at academies??

[The Parksider]

well there is 10 on that list of cumbrian players above that have played super league, im sure there is alot more from the past 17 years

13 British Superleague clubs need 221 professional players for their starting line ups of 17 players.

Out of the 221 players who will start SL this year, how many will be from west Cumbria and how many from Barrow, two "hotbeds" of the game for over 100 years?

The answer has already been pointed at but avoided.

[shun]

Well list them then, and settle the bloody argument.

Ade gardner
Matt gardner
Peter lupton
liam campbell(wakey)
Amor
Lunt
Mossop
Wilkes
Harrison
Dowes
Singleton
They have all played competetive superleague games 11 of them
and that is the most recent list of players, of the other 17 sl seasons im sure there would have been 6 more cumbrians that have played sl, there fore makeing more than 1 per season!

Edited by shun, 06 January 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Griff]

13 British Superleague clubs need 221 professional players for their starting line ups of 17 players.

Out of the 221 players who will start SL this year, how many will be from west Cumbria and how many from Barrow, two "hotbeds" of the game for over 100 years?

Is it six ?

[keighley]

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from Cumbria? Go on then how many have made it and are playing today from a whole county with 100 years of history of the game being a major sport there??

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from Wales? Go on then how many have made it from a whole country and are playing SL today??

Does SL get kids to full time first team pro's from the Midlands? Go on then how many have made it from the middle third of England and are playing SL today??

We've had 17 years of a free gangway.

Start putting some facts together to back your argument

" If the north wasn't desperately in need of kids from Cumbria and Wales " is a direct quote from your post. If you don't believe it, don't post it.

On the midlands, there was recently an article on a kid, I think it was from Telford, who signed for a SL academy and several from Northampton and Derbyshire have been signed as well as a few from Ireland ( Saints) and Scotland ( Hull KR).

How many times does it need repeating that the juniors being produced in London are mainly from the South East ( Greenwich, London Storm ) or the North East ( Haringay, London Skolars juniors ) community clubs and are about as far away from Twickenham as Leeds is from Hull, nothing to do with the Broncos. If the Broncos did not exist. these kids would be snapped up by other SL teams since , as you say, the talent base is so stretched.

[keighley]

So those who are good enough to play international RL don't count? Nor do those that have been at SL academies? e.g Miller. Lupton was at London and Crusaders as well.

Don't think you are being generous at all - deliberately classing a current playing rosta of 19 players as the whole Cumbrian production line in 17 years of SL isn't being generous IMO.

(Can't insert a smiley to this post btw)

Thank you for producing that list in reply to Parksider's aggressive challenge on the subject. As you say, the population base of West Cumbria is very small to have produced all those players and others who have now retired and all without A SL club anywhere near.

In the meantime, the presence of a SL club in London, with a population in excess of 8,000,000, has produced maybe 10 SL players . Game, set and match, I think.

[bowes]

There's no juniors in west London at all in fact.

[keighley]

You have only given me six actual Superleague first XV11 players and you have also had to add in Barrow lads to get it to six.

Pontefract is a bigger hot bed of SL professionals than the whole of Cumbria.

Any idea why this may be?

It must be because of the Pontefract SL team.

[keighley]

By playing at the highest level they can which may be by going on tour to Australia??

Do we then expect the 11 lads to end up in the first teams of SL clubs in the next few years??

Also why if these are great young RL players are they not at academies??

I bet most will be or would have been before they disbanded them.

[southstand loiner]

Is that a role for the pro clubs ? Is providing better quality players for the amateur game something that they should pay for ?

At community club level, players play for their own amusement. It doesn't matter if they're any good - as long as they enjoy themselves.

However - on a related point - there is an argument that the $uperleague Academy sides produce enough players to fill up spare recruitment places for CC and CC1 sides. I'd be interested to have some stats on how many players are recruited from $uperleague rejects and how many come from CC development - in the few remaining instances where they actually have one, obviously.

That is, of course, notwithstanding my point that ambitious CC sides should be allowed to have development teams so that they can make the step up to $uperleague, if invited to do so.

the top community clubs do not play just for there own amusment and indeed some of them have playes who could more than hold there own at championship level but due to work commitments find it hard to meet the training/playing time scales imposed at a championhip club . just look at the teams in the national leagues many of who draw bigger crowds than championship one clubs and it becomes obvious there not just social sides.
anyway i do regard it as part of the remit of a profesional side to improve the skills and standards within there own service areas which leeds do not only at school and junior level but at open age as well through regular training sessions with clubs and get togetherswith coaches of community clubs within the area . also the fact as i have statd is you will never get every academy player develping enough to become a proffesional but you ccould not run a team with only 3 or 4 players .
dont have the stats for academy players now in the championship but from what i have seen/read it would apear that most championship clubs have at least 4 or 5 players who have been part of super league academies at some point .
as for your final point featherstone, sheffield and keighley have good development sides who have provided there clubs with a good number of players in recent years but the fact is almost any junior will sign for a super league club if they can not least because they see it as a higher level and they will et better levels of coaching and most likely a better signing on fee thats just human nature and dont we all want to aim as high as we can

[Griff]

the top community clubs do not play just for there own amusment and indeed some of them have playes who could more than hold there own at championship level ............

Whoa !! Hold it there ! What do they play for, then ?

[southstand loiner]

Whoa !! Hold it there ! What do they play for, then ?

pride and love of the game
. two things that dont always revolve around money . and as i stated theres not really a lot of money to be earned playing in the championship. say if a player has a good job that involves shift work then he would find it hard to commit to the training times demanded by a championship club but would still have a love for the game and take pride in his preformances on the pitch.
just go to the top amature clubs and ask players for there thoughts on the matter i can tell you theres not a player at the east leeds club that does not want to win and play there best at all times the same goes for most clubs but they do have to earn a living as well

[Griff]

pride and love of the game
. two things that dont always revolve around money . and as i stated theres not really a lot of money to be earned playing in the championship. say if a player has a good job that involves shift work then he would find it hard to commit to the training times demanded by a championship club but would still have a love for the game and take pride in his preformances on the pitch.
just go to the top amature clubs and ask players for there thoughts on the matter i can tell you theres not a player at the east leeds club that does not want to win and play there best at all times the same goes for most clubs but they do have to earn a living as well

Right - so for their own amusement at the end of the day. Of course they want to win - it's more fun. On the other hand, if East Leeds win, the other team loses. For the purposes of the point I was making, does it matter who wins, or how good the players are ? No.

If they didn't want to play, they wouldn't do it. Once they stop enjoying playing, they'll stop playing.

And we're drifting away from the point of who should pay for developing amateur players. If anyone.

[southstand loiner]

Right - so for their own amusement at the end of the day. Of course they want to win - it's more fun. On the other hand, if East Leeds win, the other team loses. For the purposes of the point I was making, does it matter who wins, or how good the players are ? No.

If they didn't want to play, they wouldn't do it. Once they stop enjoying playing, they'll stop playing.

And we're drifting away from the point of who should pay for developing amateur players. If anyone.

is it for amusement or fittness and of course theres medals at stake and the chance to play for your county or country the difference is you dont get paid .
do all those joggers and those who go to the over priced fittness centres only do that for there own amusement ? or to maintain a health life by the way.
although a number of clubs do have expences lists .
as for stopping playing when they stop enjoying it is that not what even top profesionals do but they call it retirement .

now back to the central point on paying for player devlopment it should be a mix of the clubs themselves paying but they should be helped by both the rfl and the professional clubs because most clubs these days run junior teams and in the main they would fold without the open age club there with supporting them so the two are interlinked and without those junior clubs we dont have the next generation of players or indeed spectators

Edited by southstand loiner, 06 January 2013 - 01:31 PM.

[Griff]

Well OK - we obviously define the phrase "for their own amusement" in different ways. I dunno - if I wanted to get fit, I'm not sure I'd choose amateur Rugby League. Could have quite the opposite effect.

Nevertheless - I take your point.

[shun]

Ade gardner
Matt gardner
Peter lupton
liam campbell(wakey)
Amor
Lunt
Mossop
Wilkes
Harrison
Dowes
Singleton
They have all played competetive superleague games 11 of them
and that is the most recent list of players, of the other 17 sl seasons im sure there would have been 6 more cumbrians that have played sl, there fore makeing more than 1 per season!

Add james donaldson, gary broadbent, rob purdham, anthony blackwood, gary chambers

Edited by shun, 06 January 2013 - 01:40 PM.