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First effects of the new development system

Wakefield Adam Slater

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#121 southstand loiner

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:46 AM

can i ask how many of the wigan academy players come from wigan clubs and how many from leigh clubs and of course the reverse of this .
would be interesting to then see the effects of the difference between super league money and championship money on junior recruitment
ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.
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#122 Griff

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:15 PM

I wondering how useful this exercise is. There are always going to be grey areas - where, for example, a player plays for two Academies. Which one made him into the first grade player he is today ?
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#123 The Parksider

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

can i ask how many of the wigan academy players come from wigan clubs and how many from leigh clubs and of course the reverse of this .
would be interesting to then see the effects of the difference between super league money and championship money on junior recruitment


I can't answer that accurately all that seems glaringly obvious is top class junior players will go join academies where the money and cups are. If someone ends up a star from the Salford academy like Myler Wire will take him, or Zac and Fev academy, Leeds will take him.

#124 The Parksider

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:00 PM

1. I wondering how useful this exercise is.

2. There are always going to be grey areas - where, for example, a player plays for two Academies. Which one made him into the first grade player he is today ?


1. :( I was wondering how long it would be before someone decided to declare the facts someone has worked hard on "unuseful". I'm just disappointed it's you sir.

2. It doesn't really matter to that degree. It's a general look at where star players come from in what number - never mind the academies, Juniors in championship club areas can't join academies that don't exist. e.g Batley academy.

There's enough in the excersise to make some general conclusions e.g.

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.
Several clubs who think they can be superleague successes have hardly spawned any Pro players at all from their areas
If Cas and Fev got together they could have one heck of an academy
Hull have produced only 13 top Hull professionals yet have two clubs in SL
Only Leeds and Wigan have developed enough local players to operate in SL without having to "buy in"
12 out 0f 14 clubs have to buy in players because they don't produce enough of their own and so
Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

And there we are full circle.

Griff - how useful is all the fantasising that goes on on here?? :D

#125 sweaty craiq

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:41 PM

I can't answer that accurately all that seems glaringly obvious is top class junior players will go join academies where the money and cups are. If someone ends up a star from the Salford academy like Myler Wire will take him, or Zac and Fev academy, Leeds will take him.


Myler was Widnes and Salford pinched him when they went into admin, with Sidlow.

#126 sweaty craiq

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 09:50 PM

1. :( I was wondering how long it would be before someone decided to declare the facts someone has worked hard on "unuseful". I'm just disappointed it's you sir.

2. It doesn't really matter to that degree. It's a general look at where star players come from in what number - never mind the academies, Juniors in championship club areas can't join academies that don't exist. e.g Batley academy.

There's enough in the excersise to make some general conclusions e.g.

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.
Several clubs who think they can be superleague successes have hardly spawned any Pro players at all from their areas
If Cas and Fev got together they could have one heck of an academy
Hull have produced only 13 top Hull professionals yet have two clubs in SL
Only Leeds and Wigan have developed enough local players to operate in SL without having to "buy in"
12 out 0f 14 clubs have to buy in players because they don't produce enough of their own and so
Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

And there we are full circle.

Griff - how useful is all the fantasising that goes on on here?? :D


Parky I agree with most of that btw.

SL's failings, and why franchising hisses me off, is that the future of our game lies in player production and development, yet clubs like Salford produce little that hasn't already been created outside the area. Eg Ratchford - Wigan, Myler - Widnes. Adamson - Leigh. Broughton/Williams - Leeds Jewitt/Sneyd - Oldham, Neal being the exception.

We are making it impossible for clubs to maximise the potential player pool by ringfencing those incapable of adding to it.ie encouraging the parasite.

Edited by sweaty craiq, 08 January 2013 - 09:51 PM.


#127 Padge

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:04 PM

Parky I agree with most of that btw.

SL's failings, and why franchising hisses me off, is that the future of our game lies in player production and development, yet clubs like Salford produce little that hasn't already been created outside the area. Eg Ratchford - Wigan, Myler - Widnes. Adamson - Leigh. Broughton/Williams - Leeds Jewitt/Sneyd - Oldham, Neal being the exception.

We are making it impossible for clubs to maximise the potential player pool by ringfencing those incapable of adding to it.ie encouraging the parasite.

SL was not responsible for the lack of player production/development, it was pre-SL that the rot set in in that department. Under SL it has improved massively, however it has only happened at certain clubs, those with the money to do it. But slowley other clubs are making movement in the right direction.

All clubs for years behaved parasitically, ask rugby union about it, ask amateur clubs about it, ask whoever was at the bottom of the pile whenever about who was at the top of the pile at the same time.

You have a distorted view of the realities of where this game was and where it is now.

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#128 southstand loiner

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:45 PM

I can't answer that accurately all that seems glaringly obvious is top class junior players will go join academies where the money and cups are. If someone ends up a star from the Salford academy like Myler Wire will take him, or Zac and Fev academy, Leeds will take him.


yep thats how it wil be and always has been and no problem as long as they pay the transfer fee as they used to do .
ah a sunday night in front of the telly watching old rugby league games.
does life get any better .

#129 sweaty craiq

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 11:59 PM

SL was not responsible for the lack of player production/development, it was pre-SL that the rot set in in that department. Under SL it has improved massively, however it has only happened at certain clubs, those with the money to do it. But slowley other clubs are making movement in the right direction.

All clubs for years behaved parasitically, ask rugby union about it, ask amateur clubs about it, ask whoever was at the bottom of the pile whenever about who was at the top of the pile at the same time.

You have a distorted view of the realities of where this game was and where it is now.


I also believe your view to be distorted.

Pre SL, say late 80's, how many non Brits were needed to put a team on the paddock in the top division. Our Sport has evolved since those days, money has come flooding in and players now need not work and train at night. You always had and will always have bait fish, and money seems to have created elites in all UK sport that will feed on what they want because they are financially able to do so - RL is no different except it tinkers with nature to select those allowed to feed.

Increased player pool must be about expansion not exclusion, and if you cant add value you certainly should not be protected after 17 years of FT structures on the pretence that you are slowly moving in the right direction.

I thought we were closing the gap late 80's early 90's, since then we have gone backwards comparitively - why?

#130 Griff

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:33 AM

1. :( I was wondering how long it would be before someone decided to declare the facts someone has worked hard on "unuseful". I'm just disappointed it's you sir.

2. It doesn't really matter to that degree. It's a general look at where star players come from in what number - never mind the academies, Juniors in championship club areas can't join academies that don't exist. e.g Batley academy.

There's enough in the excersise to make some general conclusions e.g.

Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.
Several clubs who think they can be superleague successes have hardly spawned any Pro players at all from their areas
If Cas and Fev got together they could have one heck of an academy
Hull have produced only 13 top Hull professionals yet have two clubs in SL
Only Leeds and Wigan have developed enough local players to operate in SL without having to "buy in"
12 out 0f 14 clubs have to buy in players because they don't produce enough of their own and so
Superleague would be in the proverbial if they didn't still import 69 first choice overseas stars.

And there we are full circle.

Griff - how useful is all the fantasising that goes on on here?? :D


Oh, I wasn't disagreeing as a matter of principle.

Just pointing out that there are grey areas and that it's very difficult to get hard, incontrovertible facts in some cases.

Fantasising ? Very useful. It keeps people happy. B)
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#131 gingerjon

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:36 AM

how many non Brits were needed to put a team on the paddock in the top division


They were British but I can remember a lot of players out there being from union clubs.
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#132 The Parksider

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:29 AM

Fantasising ? Very useful. It keeps people happy. B)


:D

We need a forum or two adding, Fantasy RL forum for one...

#133 Griff

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:35 AM

:D

We need a forum or two adding, Fantasy RL forum for one...


Any thread on promotion and relegation can be transferred there.
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#134 The Parksider

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:55 AM

Pre SL, say late 80's, how many non Brits were needed to put a team on the paddock in the top division.


Wigan had the Iro's, Shelford and West, Leeds had five, Widnes a couple, Wire about 3 inc. Tamati and Boyd - a pair of softies, saints three, salford a couple, bradford and hull a couple. Roughly speaking the top division had three good imports per club, today that is about six- double.

I have a feeling (what do others think?) that Superleague raised the playing standard and there was a surplus of players down under who were finding it hard to get a contract in the NRL who were a higher standard than a lot of the Brits, merely because they have so many more players playing the game there. The money was there also to bring them in and so the figure doubled.

I do not have a feeling at all that the imports were generally "no better" than the British players they were supposedly blocking, I think they were better and are still better because they come from a game that has a higher standard and higher numbers playing and has a surplus of quality?

We have a dearth.

Edited by The Parksider, 09 January 2013 - 11:56 AM.


#135 The Parksider

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 12:19 PM

Increased player pool must be about expansion not exclusion, and if you cant add value you certainly should not be protected after 17 years of FT structures on the pretence that you are slowly moving in the right direction.


I agree with part of that in theory because "protected" SL clubs are maybe not moving in the right direction. Salford aren't turning out local lads in any great number, it's been a stagnant area for players for years back to the seventies. Wakefield were trumpeting their championship winning academy a few years ago - stars of the future but there's still only a couple of Wakefield born lads playing SL. Hull and HKR had twenty big names from Hull early eighties, today there's only 13. The only real growth I see is in Leeds where the club could put a cracking home born 17 on the pitch. When I first watched them in 1971 they had Holmes, Eccles and Pitchford.It's taken the club many years at the top to stimulate this growth, Warrington also seem to be inspiring more kids.

But It may be I don't agree at all with your idea about "expansion". Have 20 academies if you like but it won't make any difference if the junior game which feeds the academies doesn't expand.

We've already had the idea Hull/HKR may as well have one academy. The best kids in Hull will still make it and half the kids who go through their academies now won't have to bother suffering the disappointment. This idea could also apply elsewhere? Have a Bradhuddersfax academy.

I think the RFL think the same way which is why they support a London academy, have started a south wales academy and a Cumbria academy. That's the expansion that "may" increase the quality player pool, but it still needs a vibrant local junior RL to draw from. Thoughts?

Edited by The Parksider, 09 January 2013 - 12:27 PM.


#136 keighley

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:57 PM

I can't answer that accurately all that seems glaringly obvious is top class junior players will go join academies where the money and cups are. If someone ends up a star from the Salford academy like Myler Wire will take him, or Zac and Fev academy, Leeds will take him.


To quote the song, " The rich get rich and the poor get shafted, but, in the meantime, in between time, lets's all have fun ". No point in anybody going into junior development, then, Wigan and leeds will sign up all prospects. No point in any other club getting investors, they can never compete with Leeds and Wigan. Let's just schedule the Grand Final every year alternating the game between DW stadium and Headingley, no point in planning for any of the other losers to get there because they won't.

Let's toss out all stragglers and play the top five against each other 5 times a season because no other teams will ever compete or be worthy.

#137 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

To quote the song, " The rich get rich and the poor get shafted, but, in the meantime, in between time, lets's all have fun ". No point in anybody going into junior development, then, Wigan and leeds will sign up all prospects. No point in any other club getting investors, they can never compete with Leeds and Wigan. Let's just schedule the Grand Final every year alternating the game between DW stadium and Headingley, no point in planning for any of the other losers to get there because they won't.

Let's toss out all stragglers and play the top five against each other 5 times a season because no other teams will ever compete or be worthy.

Surely the likes of Leeds ,Wigan and Saints realised the importance of junior development,twinned with good business planning was the way ahead,you can hardly blame them for being well run.
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#138 keighley

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:04 PM

Surely the likes of Leeds ,Wigan and Saints realised the importance of junior development,twinned with good business planning was the way ahead,you can hardly blame them for being well run.


No, Sir, and more power to them. What p***ses me off is the assumption that no other teams can ever hope to join their select company and so it's useless to ever have any ambition and they are so cashed up and so far ahead in junior deveolpment, that there is no chance anyone can ever ever compete with them. It's negative and defeatist.

#139 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

No, Sir, and more power to them. What p***ses me off is the assumption that no other teams can ever hope to join their select company and so it's useless to ever have any ambition and they are so cashed up and so far ahead in junior deveolpment, that there is no chance anyone can ever ever compete with them. It's negative and defeatist.

Only because most clubs didn't initially realise the importance of junior development,instead choosing to go the import route,or not putting enough resources into junior development.
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#140 sweaty craiq

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:11 PM

Only because most clubs didn't initially realise the importance of junior development,instead choosing to go the import route,or not putting enough resources into junior development.


Terry its because there are only 4 SL clubs. Wigan, Wire, Leeds and Saints. Bradford had a bash but decided to go the import line and Hull have the potential - and guess what none of them will ever be relegated in the near future, 10 years, if P&R returned or we went two tens.




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