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National Cup

When is the draw

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#21 carlos

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:12 PM

looks like the National cup has died a death hey, such a shame, once great comp.

#22 gillmeister

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:35 PM

There is still plenty of teams that could make a vibrant National cup even if the NCL teams dont but BARLA need to acknowledge that the majority of teams now play March-October and scheduled the competition in a suitable place, If it had been another two weeks later my club would have entered but 9th feb is only two weeks into our pre-season
Forget Chuck and Chad I am the real legend killer

#23 leighminers

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 12:43 PM

Surely the rfl could create a national cup for tier 3 & 4 sides, they could have it as the curtain raiser for the northern rail cup final, like the ncl challenge cup was for the championship grand finals last year

#24 bowes

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:25 PM

There does need to be some kind of structure for cups as the current formats aren't great. The Conference Challenge Cup works but do the clubs want to extend it to tier 4 or not? It should include the Conference South and all 4 divisions of the NCL at least IMO.

The Community Shield had a rigged format that had an artifically high number of expansion clubs whilst capping the number of heartland teams to show off. I think it should instead be an open draw. If that means it becomes 80-90% Lancashire and Cumbria with Telford and a handful of Yorkshire and North East clubs then so be it. Arguably it should be merged with the Conference Challenge Cup though.

I'd keep the Yorkshire Cup in winter but move the Lancashire and Cumbria cups to summer (scrap the Wars of the Roses if it hasn't already been). Then I'd replace the past its sell by date Harry Jepson Trophy with an open entry Southern Counties Cup (possibly just tier 4) and a North East Cup.

#25 Marauder

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 01:43 PM

I have just asked BARLA the question when is the draw?, and was told the first round should have been played on 19th jan but it has been put back till 9th feb. Even they could not give me a date for the draw.

Hardly worth bothering if only 20 teams

I'm surprised we never entered this season.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#26 Marauder

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

Will basically be a repeat of the Yorkshire Cup but with fewer teams.

Could say it's been like the Yorkshire Cup for the last few years ;)
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#27 Marauder

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 03:49 PM

There is still plenty of teams that could make a vibrant National cup even if the NCL teams dont but BARLA need to acknowledge that the majority of teams now play March-October and scheduled the competition in a suitable place, If it had been another two weeks later my club would have entered but 9th feb is only two weeks into our pre-season

BARLA put a plan for the National Cup on the table 2 or 3 years ago to involve all amateur teams in a rescheduled slot in the year, the blueprint was handed into David Gent but the RFL didn't want to follow up an idea from BARLA.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#28 TheDuke

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 04:08 PM

Such a shame that this competition has come to this, the amateur game needs a national cup competition, perhaps a joint effort or a cup administered by the community board would bridge the gap between the two parent bodies

#29 del capo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:18 PM

The National Cup was dying long before the move to summer.......the main reason being the reluctance by local , ordinary teams now defined as Tier 4 to engage with the ' Big Boys ' of the NCL and Regional Premiers...

Never seen Barla's blueprint for resuscitation Marauder. Did it start by basing it on a summer formula ? Because without that it never stood a chance . Can't see that myself because 2 - 3 years ago the time you say they approached DG , very few were playing in that season .and Barla do not shall we say seem to have the capacity to think wider.

A truly national Tier 4 competition , running Spring to Autumn and excluding not just Tier 3 but also all the winter and summer Top 4 / 6 Premiers from the Heartlands would have much more of a chance.... And I'd put those excluded into the Conference ( Tier 3 ) Cup. Can Barla think outside the box ?

#30 Marauder

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 06:35 PM

The National Cup was dying long before the move to summer.......the main reason being the reluctance by local , ordinary teams now defined as Tier 4 to engage with the ' Big Boys ' of the NCL and Regional Premiers...

Never seen Barla's blueprint for resuscitation Marauder. Did it start by basing it on a summer formula ? Because without that it never stood a chance . Can't see that myself because 2 - 3 years ago the time you say they approached DG , very few were playing in that season .and Barla do not shall we say seem to have the capacity to think wider.

A truly national Tier 4 competition , running Spring to Autumn and excluding not just Tier 3 but also all the winter and summer Top 4 / 6 Premiers from the Heartlands would have much more of a chance.... And I'd put those excluded into the Conference ( Tier 3 ) Cup. Can Barla think outside the box ?

Peter you definately know like I that anything BARLA want or say the RFL/Community board will oppose and the structure and alliegiance of the community board committee make sure of that - It's not the case of thinking out of the box because I'm sure many involved with BARLA can, what is probably the problem is the democratic structure of the association and a few egos.

The National Cup had been going downwards and I agree the reasons you have state are probably correct, this is where a cup competition for the lower end of the amateur game should have been run.

Edited by Marauder, 27 January 2013 - 06:40 PM.

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#31 del capo

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Posted 27 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

Some ( not many ) within Barla can still think outside the box but I agree with you that they are ultimately stifled because the Barla machine is essentially undemocratic . Sort that out and maybe a whole new world will appear........

Meanwhile you are totally wrong about the Community Board. They do not oppose what Barla bring to the table , if only because Barla have brought nothing to it in at least the last 4 years ........and when the Barla delegate starts to engage ( and I'm not talking just the last one ) they are promptly replaced.....End of days if this continues my friend......

But back to thread. A good , national competition for standard clubs with a chance to progress at the right time and in the right format is bound to have an increased interest. Barla cannot deliver it alone - just 23 entrants for the Cup this time. Maybe those egos you talk about need to talk to the rest of the game to see what if anything can be sorted for next year.....

#32 TaxiEgg

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

Peter you can not deny your part in the demise of the National Cup you and others within the game at both Open age and youth and Junior , made it difficult for your members to parcipate in not allowing windows in your fixture program .
You are however spot on points on the current and recent members of the board of management, they just dont get the need to modernise and move with the times they are there to represent the members and if the majority of the members move to different playing season then they needed to embrace that .
Had they switched the National Cup to align with the Summer Swich would the NCL have given them the windows in your calender to accomadate ?

You also refer to our mutual friend who recently has tried in vain i might add to get the board to work with the governing body to get the best for their members in this time of transistion , and you are right he now is being treated as a leper because he dared to try and do just that get the best for BARLA.

The BARLA board are almost bullet proof in the way they are elected ,irrespective of what they do in their respective roles for the benefit of their members .
Personally i have tried to engage in dialouge with one senior member of the board and he just thinks that the Board are representing their members best interest despite losing the support of major leagues in the association and now the support of its clubs in the open age National Cup .
The association needs fresh blood with modern ideas but the old boys network closes ranks and blocks any moves to do just that .
I still belive we need an effective represenative body for the amatuer game because Peter you know if your honest the RFL are not the real deal .

#33 Marauder

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:40 AM

Peter you can not deny your part in the demise of the National Cup you and others within the game at both Open age and youth and Junior , made it difficult for your members to parcipate in not allowing windows in your fixture program .
You are however spot on points on the current and recent members of the board of management, they just dont get the need to modernise and move with the times they are there to represent the members and if the majority of the members move to different playing season then they needed to embrace that .
Had they switched the National Cup to align with the Summer Swich would the NCL have given them the windows in your calender to accomadate ?

You also refer to our mutual friend who recently has tried in vain i might add to get the board to work with the governing body to get the best for their members in this time of transistion , and you are right he now is being treated as a leper because he dared to try and do just that get the best for BARLA.

The BARLA board are almost bullet proof in the way they are elected ,irrespective of what they do in their respective roles for the benefit of their members .
Personally i have tried to engage in dialouge with one senior member of the board and he just thinks that the Board are representing their members best interest despite losing the support of major leagues in the association and now the support of its clubs in the open age National Cup .
The association needs fresh blood with modern ideas but the old boys network closes ranks and blocks any moves to do just that .
I still belive we need an effective represenative body for the amatuer game because Peter you know if your honest the RFL are not the real deal .

Got to agree totally and I think one of the main reasons for the demise in the numbers entering the National Cup in recent years was answered on another thread by Peter.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#34 del capo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:13 AM

When four out of five of the current ' winter ' sides choose not to enter then the problem is far greater than the NCL calender Taxi Egg.

If I were Barla I'd do some research and start by asking those clubs who have not entered why they haven't. Armed with that info they would then at least be in a position to start to address the issues. It may of course be simply a case of not wanting a cup , in which case Barla may just have to bite the bullet, but I suspect it's more complex than that.

As to the NCL Calender, the clubs rightly demand continuity of fixtures. Cup competition does not give you that. They also at present want Divisions of 14 where we can give it to them , thereby leaving little room for manouver.. But more to the point Tier 3 has it's own Cup properly sitting within it's own season.

The National Cup was in serious decline well before the move to summer and even when the NCL DID leave gaps for it to take place . The inclusion of NCL clubs probably put lots of 'ordinary ' clubs off entering .Without picking on anyone in particular what would be the prospects of say Adlington turning up to play Leigh Miners 1st team ?

No , the answer , if there is one, lies in a countrywide Tier 4 competition excluding the top end of the regional premiers such as Queens , Bank Quay , Fryston etc ( they could perhaps 'guest' in the Tier 3 cup ) .To cater for everyone it might need to be split ( not my preference ) --- 3 / 4 rounds in October / November ( if necessary ) recommencing May and into June , again if necessary. All sides would have match fitness in such a scenario.......and they would all have a chance to have some fun without having the living daylight beaten out of them :)

#35 TaxiEgg

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:50 PM

The four out of five winter sides entered to have a crack at the NCL BIG BOYS Peter .So perhaps there lies the answer to your question ?

Edited by TaxiEgg, 28 January 2013 - 04:51 PM.


#36 Marauder

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

The four out of five winter sides entered to have a crack at the NCL BIG BOYS Peter .So perhaps there lies the answer to your question ?

We entered to have a crack at the big boys and on our last showing against a NCL club we did ourselves proud.

I've been told the only reason we never entered this season was to limit the chance of getting more injuries as we attempt to keep out place in the Pennine championship.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#37 del capo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:51 PM

The four out of five winter sides entered to have a crack at the NCL BIG BOYS Peter .So perhaps there lies the answer to your question ?


I think you have the maths wrong there Taxi Egg .

Only one in five have entered . 23 in total out of a possible 100 plus. Maybe all the rest just don't want to go anywhere near an NCL outfit or for that matter the usual suspects from the Pennine League Premiers !!!

#38 Marauder

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:35 PM

I think you have the maths wrong there Taxi Egg .

Only one in five have entered . 23 in total out of a possible 100 plus. Maybe all the rest just don't want to go anywhere near an NCL outfit or for that matter the usual suspects from the Pennine League Premiers !!!

More than 100 clubs are eligible, in fact only one of last seasons NCL clubs is not, Cumbrian clubs are as well as most NWCML (Or what ever it's called)
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



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#39 TaxiEgg

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:36 PM

Must be two of us with the wrong maths Peter as was just replying to your earlier post.

Would the challenge cup survive if super league clubs withdrew ?

#40 del capo

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:04 PM

Must be two of us with the wrong maths Peter as was just replying to your earlier post.

Would the challenge cup survive if super league clubs withdrew ?


Read me again Taxi Egg. I said when four out of five choose NOT to enter :)

It's a winter competition Marauder as currently structured. And 80% of winter sides don't want to know. That's the immediate problem. Any decent administration would have been asking questions why long before now.......




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