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The SL Licensing v Promotion & Relegation debate thread


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#261 Ackroman

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:02 AM

Why not just start the Championship at Christmas

#262 Griff

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 09:13 AM

Why not just start the Championship at Christmas


We've already done that and dismissed it as a bad idea.

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#263 The Parksider

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Posted 22 January 2013 - 12:17 PM

Who says a season has to be 9 months long, may be run two 5 month seasons in a year with P & R, this could keep the interest going especially with a yo yo club and if worked correctly would produce more games and open up two transfer windows within a year.

I'm impressed with all your figures but eventhough I may fail slightly with my A,B & C's I'm wise enough to know Super League clubs just can not afford to live at the maximum and the more clubs try the more Salfords, Castlefords & Bradfords we will have, IMO the RFL are trying to structure the whole of the Rugby League with only one goal in mind and I'm not convinced thats the best goal for the entire game.


I have never found you failing with your "A,B,C's".

I take your point entirely although wonder about definitions.

Does "The game" mean our traditional 30 or so clubs?

Or does "The game" mean Rugby league from top to bottom.

There's a difference and one can conflict with the other.

For I fear there is no format to the pro and semi pro "game" that will do it's best for the advancement of 30 AND the game in general.

e.g. a retreat to semi pro across all clubs liked by the few (including your good self) would kill the game according to the many.

#264 The Parksider

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 01:49 PM

And so thread 78 on P & R dies a death, and another shedload of posts sink down into the archives.

In summary IMHO Licensing is pretty much a dead duck, it hasn't done what Rimmer said it would do, whether that was the fault of licensing per se or the financials in SL it doesn't really matter. Nobody really defended it

Does that then mean P & R wins the day. I don't think so. We've had some great theories but until it's tried in practice for a few seasons under whatever P & R system is best who knows. Craiq's system was the most exciting suggestion for me.

I personally would have it back only to see if it does work (which I'd hope it would) and if it doesn't then we can get it out of our system. Whilst we go back to whatever it may be.

If there was a concensus then it was one for honesty, hands up if your in SL and can't hack it, hands up if your in CC and can?
Be honest about it. Then let them in that can.

Edited by The Parksider, 23 January 2013 - 01:49 PM.


#265 Northern Sol

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:10 PM

If there was a concensus then it was one for honesty, hands up if your in SL and can't hack it, hands up if your in CC and can?
Be honest about it. Then let them in that can.


So no expansion then?

#266 Griff

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:14 PM

So no expansion then?


Expansion and P+R are completely different topics.

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#267 keighley

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 03:42 PM

Expansion and P+R are completely different topics.


They are but they are also linked. If there is p and r, an expansion club in CC1 has a route to SL. Improbable but not impossible.



#268 Ponterover

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 07:42 PM

Why not just start the Championship at Christmas


No thanks, have you been to any friendlies this January, it's bloody freezing out there.

I do not miss freezing my nuts off one little bit, viva summer rugby

#269 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

We've already done that and dismissed it as a bad idea.


Who's "we"?

A boxing day start is a good idea to kick the league off with derbies. That way you get the bumper Xmas and New Year gates. I recall Widnes and Leigh drawing 6600 in a second div game on boxing day about 10 years ago - I was there.

Then the Northern ###### Cup could fill in for Jan and Feb

Far better than watching pathetic ripoff friendlies

#270 Griff

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:14 AM

Who's "we"?


The clubs. They decided they didn't want it.

They did it ten years ago, they don't do it now. If they liked it, they wouldn't have changed.

Edited by Griff, 24 January 2013 - 09:14 AM.

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#271 Griff

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:15 AM

Far better than watching pathetic ripoff friendlies


Agreed. I can't understand why people throng to these - but while they do, they'll continue.

Edited by Griff, 24 January 2013 - 09:15 AM.

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#272 Griff

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:17 AM

They are but they are also linked. If there is p and r, an expansion club in CC1 has a route to SL. Improbable but not impossible.


They do now. They can make a licence application and get selected for $uperleague.

Improbable but not impossible.

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#273 Bulliac

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

Not a system where to fall out of the the top flight is to be doomed perhaps forever to be excluded. A system where a huge gap in standards doesn't appear between the top and next level - you know - like all the other sports in the UK!

You seem to be overlooking one very important point. Actually, it might be two if you really think the gap between premier division soccer and the next level isn't massive. However the real difference in RL is that we don't have enough fans or sponsorship (or simply money, to get down to basics) within the game as a whole to support two professional divisions. As long as the second tier remains semi-pro you can forget soccer-style P&R, because as history has shown, it doesn't work.

Licensing is far from perfect, but it does allow promoted clubs to get up to speed before being judged. The old yo-yo system was a disaster, with too many clubs throwing money, often the 'leccy' money, at the team to try and avoid relegation. It was a nonsense and it was right to end it ansd only a masochist would want it back.

There is a further alternative which no-one seems to have mentioned, but which I'll throw into the ring even though I would dismiss it out of hand - how about we go back to everyone being semi-pro? We could have P&R again then, couldn't we?

Edited by Bulliac, 24 January 2013 - 02:53 PM.

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#274 The Parksider

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:56 PM

There is a further alternative which no-one seems to have mentioned, but which I'll throw into the ring even though I would dismiss it out of hand - how about we go back to everyone being semi-pro? We could have P&R again then, couldn't we?


We did that one in a rather extensive thread.

The proposition for harmony and a return to all clubs being competitive against each other was refuse the SKY contract and sell the game to the BBC.

The bulk of the opinion was BBC would not be greatly intersted and the loss of revenue would see the game either shrink or die.

#275 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:52 PM

You seem to be overlooking one very important point. Actually, it might be two if you really think the gap between premier division soccer and the next level isn't massive. However the real difference in RL is that we don't have enough fans or sponsorship (or simply money, to get down to basics) within the game as a whole to support two professional divisions. As long as the second tier remains semi-pro you can forget soccer-style P&R, because as history has shown, it doesn't work.

Licensing is far from perfect, but it does allow promoted clubs to get up to speed before being judged. The old yo-yo system was a disaster, with too many clubs throwing money, often the 'leccy' money, at the team to try and avoid relegation. It was a nonsense and it was right to end it ansd only a masochist would want it back.

There is a further alternative which no-one seems to have mentioned, but which I'll throw into the ring even though I would dismiss it out of hand - how about we go back to everyone being semi-pro? We could have P&R again then, couldn't we?


Your last paragraph is interesting. It does raise a question over why clubs suddenly went full time in 1995 when the game got the sky money. Would it not have been better to stay part time or mixed full/part time and to have used more money across the clubs to spend on facilities and structures.

My view is that crowds would be just as good and perhaps higher if clubs were mixed full time and part time, if scores were closer. We would not lose our best players because there would be some money for marquee full timers. I still think the rules with real scrums and a 5m rule also encouraged closer more interesting games

#276 sweaty craiq

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:33 PM

I just enjoy the irony of a Bulls fan pontificating of the financial benefits of franchising.

Two Full Time tens is affordable, practical and sensible for the games needs at this moment in time

#277 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:43 PM

I just enjoy the irony of a Bulls fan pontificating of the financial benefits of franchising.

Two Full Time tens is affordable, practical and sensible for the games needs at this moment in time


I'd go for that if it was two up two down. That way you'd have a good recycling of teams and less to fear from relegation. Also a double chance of promotion helps to hold onto a good squad

#278 keighley

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:39 AM

They do now. They can make a licence application and get selected for $uperleague.

Improbable but not impossible.


Indeed but it is so much more difficult to match up to an exisiting SL club via licencing whereas under p and r the promoted club would only have to meet minimum standards to oust the bottom of the table Sl outfit.

#279 keighley

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 04:51 AM

You seem to be overlooking one very important point. Actually, it might be two if you really think the gap between premier division soccer and the next level isn't massive. However the real difference in RL is that we don't have enough fans or sponsorship (or simply money, to get down to basics) within the game as a whole to support two professional divisions. As long as the second tier remains semi-pro you can forget soccer-style P&R, because as history has shown, it doesn't work.

Licensing is far from perfect, but it does allow promoted clubs to get up to speed before being judged. The old yo-yo system was a disaster, with too many clubs throwing money, often the 'leccy' money, at the team to try and avoid relegation. It was a nonsense and it was right to end it ansd only a masochist would want it back.

There is a further alternative which no-one seems to have mentioned, but which I'll throw into the ring even though I would dismiss it out of hand - how about we go back to everyone being semi-pro? We could have P&R again then, couldn't we?


History has shown that three or four up and down p and r dosnt work and results in many yo yo teams. When the p and r has been two or one team up and down, it s been pretty good. In 1962 Hunslet and Keighley went up and only Keighley went down. Hunslet survived.

In SL Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford, Salford and Wakefield were all promoted under a one up system and survived. Leigh did not.

Under licencing Widnes came bottom, Catalans came bottom on their admittance to SL. I think the jury is out on which system gives the best results.

#280 The Parksider

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

In 1962 Hunslet and Keighley went up and only Keighley went down. Hunslet survived.

In SL Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford, Salford and Wakefield were all promoted under a one up system and survived.

Under licencing Widnes came bottom, Catalans came bottom on their admittance to SL. I think the jury is out on which system gives the best results.


Your understandably trying to keep the debate going, but I'd suggest no jury is out based on this "evidence".

It's not 1962. In the Superleague era the formative years did not have a straightforward P & R system you could judge. Big clubs did not make the 1996 cut whilst little clubs did, and in the ensuing years of SL sorting itself out there were anomalies like Hunslet and Dewsbury taking the promotion spots over such as Widnes and HKR and not getting promotion because of a lack of resources to go on to compete in SL. Huddersfield equally showed that we didn't have proper P & R then because four times they came bottom and four times they stayed in Superleague.

It wasn't until 2002 by which time Fartown had gone and Widnes had been promoted AND stayed up in seventh place that some sort of orderly P & R started to emerge. Noticeably Widnes came seventh in their First season of Superleague so promotion worked for them at that time.

Ken Davey came in at Hudderersfield and his millions helped them get promoted back to SL. The Championship that year was a cakewalk as the cash rich professionals of Fartown didn't lose a single game and amassed over 1100 points in doing so. Huddersfield returned to SL via promotion and stayed up. Was this a success of the P & R system?? No it wasn't it was Ken Davey's millions.

Salford's relegation allowed Fartown back and Mr. Wilkinson equally flashed the cash, but only just pipped Leigh to promotion. Mr. Wilkinsons money made promotion possible for Salford, and made it possible for them to "stay up" (twice) before it ran out and the club recently collapsed. Castleford dropped in 2004 to allow Leigh up and a shortage of money led to a disasterous season for Leigh, back down to be replaced by Castleford who managed to find a budget and keep as many of their SL players as they could.

Plucky whitehaven beat them to the top spot but collapsed in the grand final amid a rumour that the part timers didn't want to go up and their chairman didn't have any money to go up with anyway.

Finally came 2006 and up went Hull.K.R. under Neil Hudgells money, they'd been close to Castleford and once Whitehaven had collapsed and leigh came down with not a penny left, the door was open for the Robins and with the clubs strategy of importing quality Australians up they came and stayed up.

I've NO doubt P & R would work if we went back to it as long as there was the finance to make it work, and this simply means that the likes of Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax and Featherstone having the likes of Hudgell, Wilkinson. Davey and Fulton so they can go up and compete to stay up in a series of ups and downs with the likes of Castleford, HKR, Salford & Wakefield.

The only valid evidence from the old P & R days in SL is that if you want P & R to be effective where clubs can stay up, you need the promoted clubs to have the money.

Finally I don't see what you mean by "under licensing Catalans and Widnes came bottom". Catalans came into SL under licensing which was claimed to give a chance for clubs to stay up through a three year period. In coming bottom it more so proved P & R does NOT work as you can't stay up in a year even WITH money. Same with Widnes. They came bottom WITH money - so what is proved is that without money at the CC clubs P & R will not work.

Indeed if Ralph Rimmer were to want a club to prove his case he's pick Catalans. He'd tell you how in protecting them from relegation they were able within six year to "build" to become a top four SL side.

Edited by The Parksider, 25 January 2013 - 08:57 AM.





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