Jump to content


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

The SL Licensing v Promotion & Relegation debate thread


  • Please log in to reply
292 replies to this topic

#141 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:31 PM

Care to discuss P & R/Licensing?


The mergers were brought up by you, remember, don't throw thread drift at me when it was you that went down that path.

Anyhow, to be fair, the mergers were all part of the original grand plan when the original SL franchises were being sorted out by St Mo, so that is pertinent to any discussion of licencing and the removal of p and r.

#142 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:36 PM

The 2011 census has the population of Wakefield District as 325,800 (rounded to nearest 100) roughly the same as Wigan Borough 317,800 (rounded to nearest 100)


According to the 2001 Census the populations of the towns/city breakdown as follows, this doesn't include any outying districts that have their own population figures. Thus Wigan/Leigh doesn't include places like Standish, Atherton and Wakefield etc. doesn't include Normanton and Pontefract etc.

Featherstone 10,382
Castleford 37,525
Wakefield 76,886

Wigan 81,203
Leigh 43,006
St.Helens 102,629

Warrington 80,661
Widnes 55,686

2011 census gives regional populations as the following.

West Yorkshire 2,225,359

Gtr Manchester 2,681,735
Merseyside 1,380,612

Warrington District 202,137
Wirral 319,585

I think those figures tell a lot.


The figures are intersting but taken in isolation are misleading. There are 5 premier league soccer clubs in Greater mancjester amd merseyide as opposed to none in West Yorkshire and Humberside.Premier league Soccer sucks in a lolt of the potential support for RL in Lancashire.

#143 Marauder

Marauder
  • Coach
  • 11,782 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:39 PM

Population of Sheffield and Rotherham is around 750,000. What does that tell us ? :mellow:

It's not about how many people there are, at the end of the day, it's how many come to games. Sure a big population gives you something to work with but it's footfall that matters.

Why have you tagged Rotherham with Sheffield when Doncaster also has a boundry with Rotherham, If Doncaster start to do Well next season their crowds will be higher than Sheffields and thats a fact.

I'm hopeful that Carl Hall will continue to make the steady progress with the Dons (Made a profit over the last two seasons) but a lot of the off field work thats been going on will depend on if the RFL will continue with the funding of their development officers who have now got Rugby League in just about every school in the district.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#144 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:44 PM

I'd love to get honesty into the Licensing system, I'd love to get honesty from the clubs.

Again how many clubs (clubs not fans) seriously want to be in Superleague. When challenged some clubs will say "we're not ready yet". Seventeen years this leagues been going.

It's great you hanker back to the good old days when clubs went up and down and I can remember so many of our member clubs had stints at the top table, receiving the likes of Wigan and Leeds.

But today we know that several clubs have refused promotion, several more are not interested, a couple already in can't hack Superleague, and couple more may need a stint in SL to realise they can't hack it either.

Is it the case that if we bring back P & R. we may end up with many championship clubs being tested and saying "no thank you", in the end and some SL clubs going down and collapsing to the point where you may be hard pressed to get 14 applications or anyone who wants to be promoted?


If many clubs cannot hack it in SL and many CC clubs could not hack it, then the end result will be a very small SL.

Maybe we need to reduce the costs needed to run a SL club, probably by reducing wages, so that a bigger SL and any promoted teams can be reasonably expected to survive in the top tier.

#145 Marauder

Marauder
  • Coach
  • 11,782 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

The figures are intersting but taken in isolation are misleading. There are 5 premier league soccer clubs in Greater mancjester amd merseyide as opposed to none in West Yorkshire and Humberside.Premier league Soccer sucks in a lolt of the potential support for RL in Lancashire.

Thats it then, Doncaster for Super League :rolleyes: - the district has a population of 289,000 (2001 Census, probably got another 30,000 poles since then)
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#146 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 03:54 PM

Why have you tagged Rotherham with Sheffield when Doncaster also has a boundry with Rotherham, If Doncaster start to do Well next season their crowds will be higher than Sheffields and thats a fact.

I'm hopeful that Carl Hall will continue to make the steady progress with the Dons (Made a profit over the last two seasons) but a lot of the off field work thats been going on will depend on if the RFL will continue with the funding of their development officers who have now got Rugby League in just about every school in the district.


I hope the World Cup makes a big profit and the RFL use it to continue to funding of development officers all over the country as their results seem to be impressive almost everywhere.

#147 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,650 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:03 PM

Why have you tagged Rotherham with Sheffield when Doncaster also has a boundry with Rotherham,


Because Rotherham town centre is about two miles from Don Valley and 20 from the Keepmoat.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#148 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,990 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:09 PM

Anyhow, to be fair, the mergers were all part of the original grand plan when the original SL franchises were being sorted out by St Mo, so that is pertinent to any discussion of licencing and the removal of p and r.


I don't think it's pertinent to this discussion at all. All the evidence by word of mouth and action is they are not wanted.

Hence an option to create bigger clubs who have more of the local fan base and all the local juniors so they can compete with the bigger clubs is to engineer a geographical spread of clubs.

Now that's an option SL/RFL could consider. It risks alienating old fans it risks attracting new fans.

Don't start haranguing me as suggesting or supporting it though please.

#149 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,990 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:13 PM

If many clubs cannot hack it in SL and many CC clubs could not hack it, then the end result will be a very small SL.

Maybe we need to reduce the costs needed to run a SL club, probably by reducing wages, so that a bigger SL and any promoted teams can be reasonably expected to survive in the top tier.


The terms and expectations of the license create a high player salary spend, and a high spend on other items it seems indisputable up to ten potential/current SL clubs can't hack..

P & R or change the licensing requirements?

Edited by The Parksider, 16 January 2013 - 04:15 PM.


#150 Marauder

Marauder
  • Coach
  • 11,782 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

Because Rotherham town centre is about two miles from Don Valley and 20 from the Keepmoat.

Cutting hairs the Keepmoat is 13 miles from Rotherham town centre and Bramall Lane is 9.6 miles.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#151 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:20 PM

Thats it then, Doncaster for Super League :rolleyes: - the district has a population of 289,000 (2001 Census, probably got another 30,000 poles since then)


Well. its not inconceivable in my opinion. Doncaster have only had about three decent seasons in the 50 years I have been following the game and in one of thiose they got promoted to the old 1st division, now SL. They were playing at decrepit Tattersfield, did not have the benefit of Sky money, and still averaged over 3,000. This was in a very bad season in which they couldn't compete and went bankrupt.

Don't forget, there was no culture of winning RL in Doncaster and this season at the top was a one off aberation.

If the costs of operating in SL were reduced as has been suggested and if Doncaster were to gradually build up a decent fan base in CC as a reult of a few good seasons there ( This next year could be a test case), then, given the size of the catchment area, the suitability of the stadium and maybe the chance of the management team attracting some cashed up investors ( are there any race horse owning restauranteurs with an interest on tax avoidance companies in the town?), then maybe they could become a suitable candidate for ticking the boxes for a SL place either via promotion or licencing.

I would bet the club in SL if they went into it from a fan base of around 2,000 could easily beat the average of the last and only Doncaster team to have a season at the top.

The town is also far enough away from the West Yorkshire heartlands to not fail the proximity test.

#152 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:24 PM

The terms and expectations of the license create a high player salary spend, and a high spend on other items it seems indisputable up to ten potential/current SL clubs can't hack..

P & R or change the licensing requirements?


Both.

#153 Marauder

Marauder
  • Coach
  • 11,782 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:27 PM

I hope the World Cup makes a big profit and the RFL use it to continue to funding of development officers all over the country as their results seem to be impressive almost everywhere.

The amateurs in Donny have been slow to jump on the bandwagon so far, Moorends are looking to start junior development this summer in the primary schools on the North East side of the town, initially taking in the Moorends, Thorne, Hatfield and Stainforth schools, if we can get this running we've also talked about Goole which is a Town with strong breeding ties with Thorne and has had Hull FC doing school development work.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#154 Marauder

Marauder
  • Coach
  • 11,782 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 04:34 PM

Well. its not inconceivable in my opinion. Doncaster have only had about three decent seasons in the 50 years I have been following the game and in one of thiose they got promoted to the old 1st division, now SL. They were playing at decrepit Tattersfield, did not have the benefit of Sky money, and still averaged over 3,000. This was in a very bad season in which they couldn't compete and went bankrupt.

Don't forget, there was no culture of winning RL in Doncaster and this season at the top was a one off aberation.

If the costs of operating in SL were reduced as has been suggested and if Doncaster were to gradually build up a decent fan base in CC as a reult of a few good seasons there ( This next year could be a test case), then, given the size of the catchment area, the suitability of the stadium and maybe the chance of the management team attracting some cashed up investors ( are there any race horse owning restauranteurs with an interest on tax avoidance companies in the town?), then maybe they could become a suitable candidate for ticking the boxes for a SL place either via promotion or licencing.

I would bet the club in SL if they went into it from a fan base of around 2,000 could easily beat the average of the last and only Doncaster team to have a season at the top.

The town is also far enough away from the West Yorkshire heartlands to not fail the proximity test.

They're a lot of rugby league supporters in Doncaster but sadly (Including me) most go eslewhere to watch their rugby league, in the Marauders team we've players who go to watch Fev, Cas, Leeds, Bradford, Hull FC, Saints, Wigan and the Dons.
Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.



http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

#155 superten

superten
  • Coach
  • 364 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 06:48 PM

for me super league should have ten teams, with no relegation. The ten would then attrach more investors with the fear of relegation been removed. The ten should break totally from the Rl . My ten as most people know are as follows hull fc , hull kr, leeds, bradford, wakefield, huddersfield, wigan, st helens , warrington and widnes. Each team would play the other three times for 27 weekly rounds of games.The top four would qualify for the championship finals play offs. Then the top eight would qualify for a new world club comp with the top eight aussies teams also qualifying. Play the world club alternate years in England one year and then Australia the next . As the ten would leave the Rl wouldnt play in the challenge cup so this could free up weeks to fit in the world club comp.
Chief Crazy Eagle

#156 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

for me super league should have ten teams, with no relegation. The ten would then attrach more investors with the fear of relegation been removed. The ten should break totally from the Rl . My ten as most people know are as follows hull fc , hull kr, leeds, bradford, wakefield, huddersfield, wigan, st helens , warrington and widnes. Each team would play the other three times for 27 weekly rounds of games.The top four would qualify for the championship finals play offs. Then the top eight would qualify for a new world club comp with the top eight aussies teams also qualifying. Play the world club alternate years in England one year and then Australia the next . As the ten would leave the Rl wouldnt play in the challenge cup so this could free up weeks to fit in the world club comp.


You assume that all would be hunky dory with your ten teams. Seeing as how Widnes, Hull KR, Wakefield and Bradford have all been bankrupt in the last few years, this is a big assumption.

When one of your teams does hit a crisis and ceases to function, where are you going to get a replacement from seeing as how you have divorced yourself from the rest of the game. They will either have ceased to exist also or be so far off the pcae as to not be able to step up OR will have forgesd a succesful rival league to the mini SL and will tell this rump competiton just where to go.

Do you think your top English players will be happy not being able to compete at International level after the ties to the RFL are cut ?

You had better hope the NRL want to entertain your rebel competition in any World Club competition. they might just ban you all and maintain links with the RFL.

I think the scenario you propose is a recipe for disaster.

#157 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,650 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:19 PM

Cutting hairs the Keepmoat is 13 miles from Rotherham town centre and Bramall Lane is 9.6 miles.


Whatever ........ <_<

Dearie me today ....... :mellow:
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#158 shaun mc

shaun mc
  • Coach
  • 1,626 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 07:58 PM

I hope the World Cup makes a big profit and the RFL use it to continue to funding of development officers all over the country as their results seem to be impressive almost everywhere.


However, the cuts to development officers has begun and any potential capital to fund DO's from the World Cup will be at least 12 months away by the time it gets divvi'd out.
RL has to plan this gap very carefully. Do they continue to fund DO's in strategic areas on the back of potential WC profits, or do they leave it to chance 12 - 18 months later?
Any feel good factor from the WC could be easily lost within a few months if the DO's are not in place. Then that benefit could be lost forever.

#159 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,229 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 08:38 PM

However, the cuts to development officers has begun and any potential capital to fund DO's from the World Cup will be at least 12 months away by the time it gets divvi'd out.
RL has to plan this gap very carefully. Do they continue to fund DO's in strategic areas on the back of potential WC profits, or do they leave it to chance 12 - 18 months later?
Any feel good factor from the WC could be easily lost within a few months if the DO's are not in place. Then that benefit could be lost forever.


Very true. The phrase " between a rock and a hard place" comes to mind.

#160 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 18,034 posts

Posted 16 January 2013 - 10:44 PM

The figures are intersting but taken in isolation are misleading. There are 5 premier league soccer clubs in Greater mancjester amd merseyide as opposed to none in West Yorkshire and Humberside.Premier league Soccer sucks in a lolt of the potential support for RL in Lancashire.


So with no Premiership soccer to compete with how do so many West Yorkshire clubs manage such relatively poor crowds?

Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users