121 replies to this topic

[Exiled Wiganer]

I know friendlies are not generally important, but if Wire hammer Wigan this week end and then again in a couple of weeks, they could go a long way to damaging Wigan's season - Wane is in his final year, and there are a lot of people who will blame his lack of man management for having to let Hock go - seeing Faz and Tuson swatted aside by Westwood and Waterhouse (the player not the betting company) is likely to make uncomfortable viewing.

[bulldog_paddy]

Am i right that this is a loan deal? If so Widnes cant sack per se, just send back to Wigan...am I right?

[roughyedspud]

aye they can send him back if they wish.

[DeadShotKeen]

As someone who wants to see more of the league’s talent spread around the clubs and a general leveling of the playing field I’m pleased by this. We mustn’t forget that there’s an element of “slumming it” on Widnes’ part though, with him not being able to face his parent club and not really being committed to Widnes in any meaningful sense. I’m hoping eventually we see situations where players asking for more cash (and warranting it) find themselves moving down the food chain on bigger contracts, thus using up the dead cap space that litters the league and forces players to NRL or RU and also bringing more fans through the gates at under-performing sides. If this was a free agent signing it would be wonderful news for the league (and its commercial viability), as it is it’s merely a very small but nonetheless welcome step in the right direction.

He’s a great player – this is in little doubt – but does have a frustratingly short fuse. He even can’t resist starting a bit of aggro when he’s going over the try line on occasion, which baffles me I must say. There are clearly demons there and I think Betts probably has his work cut out – mutual respect or not – but I’d like to see this work out for both club and player. He’s probably a bit misunderstood to some degree and I always warm to players like that. The archetypal Kevin Keegan “arm around shoulder” management style would probably work best. Betts doesn’t come across as a growler and might just fit that bill.

I don’t have an issue with him asking Wigan for more money. This is where the cap as leveller comes in and RL lads have a short career etc. The bigger question is if he has the guts to take on more responsibility for extra cash when his contract’s up and if the game as a whole is brave enough to move more in that direction by backing the 14 team system over and above the interests of the few elite sides. Hock might not be an angel but no tears for Wigan. They’ve used their bully boy stature to reload for years (Taylor, Green, Smith just this last few months) so it’s nice to see the boot on the other foot even just a little.

[hindle xiii]

aye they can send him back if they wish.

If he does keep going to-and-fro Wigan and Widnes, would that make him a Shuttle Hock...

[Futtocks]

If he does keep going to-and-fro Wigan and Widnes, would that make him a Shuttle Hock...

I'll get your coat...

[thundergaz]

I hate to see what happens to his ego after 10 games. I mean he's a good player in a poor team now so he will stand out a lot more and probably get a lot more plaudits. His head and ego is big already I'm sure he will say somewhere along the line I told you I deserved more money etc when he gets the plaudits week in week out for standing out dramatically in a poor team.Also Wigan win a lot more than they lose so can you imagine his head when Widnes lose week in week out he will be banned for most of the season for punching anyway.

Edited by thundergaz, 23 January 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[fieldofclothofgold]

Without the money for Offiah Widnes would have gone bust earlier than they actually did.

Thnk its a case of chiken and egg.The Offiah money?,which club got into financial difficulties first?

[Lounge Room Lizard]

Wigan are probably best of without Hock. If his heart is not there then whats the point of having him? Better to have a youngster busting a gut than a National player who doesnt give 100% and possibly could cause further problems in the team and the club. Hock is best of playing elsewhere for himself. If he is not happy fair enough. I am sure he will be better at Widnes than if he had stayed. Win for both sides no matter what the real story is.

Wigan in the past have caused problems at other clubs with players they wanted to sign. I remember with Danny Tickle at Halifax, he wanted to come to Wigan and Halifax didnt want to let him go. A Wigan board member advised Danny to miss training or turn up late and put little effort in. Then Halifax would want to get rid. Despite living at Mick Scotts place, so he wasnt travelling from Lancashire all the time and the club doing a lot for Danny, he left Halifax for Wigan as it wasnt worth the effort of having a player unhappy at the club possibly causing further problems. A number of people at Halifax were not happy with how things was done. No doubt other clubs have done the same if they want a player and didnt want to pay out more than they wanted to. I am not suggesting Widnes or any other club have told Hock to mess around etc so he gets a release. But it is possible and has happened and no doubt will happen in the future if a player wants to leave and a club doesnt want to

Edited by Lounge Room Lizard, 23 January 2013 - 04:24 PM.

[South Wakefield Sharks]

As someone who wants to see more of the league’s talent spread around the clubs and a general leveling of the playing field I’m pleased by this. We mustn’t forget that there’s an element of “slumming it” on Widnes’ part though, with him not being able to face his parent club and not really being committed to Widnes in any meaningful sense. I’m hoping eventually we see situations where players asking for more cash (and warranting it) find themselves moving down the food chain on bigger contracts, thus using up the dead cap space that litters the league and forces players to NRL or RU and also bringing more fans through the gates at under-performing sides. If this was a free agent signing it would be wonderful news for the league (and its commercial viability), as it is it’s merely a very small but nonetheless welcome step in the right direction.

He’s a great player – this is in little doubt – but does have a frustratingly short fuse. He even can’t resist starting a bit of aggro when he’s going over the try line on occasion, which baffles me I must say. There are clearly demons there and I think Betts probably has his work cut out – mutual respect or not – but I’d like to see this work out for both club and player. He’s probably a bit misunderstood to some degree and I always warm to players like that. The archetypal Kevin Keegan “arm around shoulder” management style would probably work best. Betts doesn’t come across as a growler and might just fit that bill.

I don’t have an issue with him asking Wigan for more money. This is where the cap as leveller comes in and RL lads have a short career etc. The bigger question is if he has the guts to take on more responsibility for extra cash when his contract’s up and if the game as a whole is brave enough to move more in that direction by backing the 14 team system over and above the interests of the few elite sides. Hock might not be an angel but no tears for Wigan. They’ve used their bully boy stature to reload for years (Taylor, Green, Smith just this last few months) so it’s nice to see the boot on the other foot even just a little.

Agree with much of this. It's surely a good thing that a current England international has left the team who finished top of the table and signed for the team who finished bottom. A properly functioning salary cap with all clubs spending the full cap will result in more of this, rather than simply as a result of such unusual circumstances as surround Hock.

[giwildgo]

There are two sides to every story although we all know that Hock has a troubled past so whatever his story his reputation is almost certainly unclean in this matter. My main point is that there is a certain hypocrisy criticising Hock for disloyalty when time and time again Wigan have traded on players disloyalty to build their squad, which in a way many teams have but not many as much as Wigan. If you're bothered that he wanted away and simply wouldn't play for you anymore, you're not the only ones and Wigan have in the past been the team the player has gravitated towards. Removing the motivations or perceived innocence of the players its happened a few times.

Like I say, Offiah springs to mind. Widnes find him. Widnes give him good money and success, in come Wigan with a major cash offer and today it's like he was never here at all. He's a hero to the Wigan faithful, I doubt they care one iota that he refused to play for his previous club as he wanted out so why should you care now?

The Offiah transfer happened 20 years ago, under a set of owners that left more than 15 years ago, and in entirely different circumstances, it's hardly relevant to a situation happening in 2013. Don't get me wrong I attribute no blame to Widnes or any other party for the situation, it's an issue between Wigan and Hock - I just don't buy the explanation given to date.

[giwildgo]

Thnk its a case of chiken and egg.The Offiah money?,which club got into financial difficulties first?

The Offiah cash had nothing to do with Wigan's money troubles - they'd just sold Hanley to Leeds for half the fee.

[southstand loiner]

These things are usually about money aren't they?

Sam Tomkins is a very exceptional player but spending around a sixth (is that right? ) of your salary cap on one player is clearly going to make the rest of the squad a tad restless.

Obviously, Hock is a gifted player also and, as a senior? England international, probably would be one of the first to produce mutterings of discontent.

this is were a club pathway on contracts shows its value . at leeds they have clear salary bands based on preformance and achivment which means players know what they have to do to achive a higher salary band .
leeds lost out on lunt as they were not prepared to offer him more money strait away but instead laid out a salary pathway based on preformance ect . in the past they have missed out on a number of players because of this but on the other hand the players they have kept are a pretty contented bunch as they know what they have to do and as important why cerain players have justified higher contracts .
we have all heard sir kevin saying players could earn more at other clubs but stay at leeds because there treated better in ways other than money.

regardless of how good a player like tomkin may be he would never be on a contract that was way out of line with his team mates if he was at leeds . not that he would ever sign for leeds anyway .

[fester]

Send him to town on dual regs lol we could do with u gaza lol

[Father Ted]

Wire may hammer Wigan in the trial game and then two weeks later. There is also the possibility that the reverse be the case.
Wigan will have played a trial game with their first team squad and some fringe players will have played three. Wire haven't played any since Boxing day AFAIK.
Should Wigan win both, what then will be the opinion of Wane and Wigan's decision to loan out Hock?
Also Hock is still a Wigan player, so what happens if it goes belly up at Widnes?
I do think this has a while to run yet!

[Exiled Wiganer]

Should Wigan win the league game or both, it will go a long way to vindicating the decision, I'd have thought. Absent players generally improve in people's minds when the team they are absent from are struggling.

[fieldofclothofgold]

The Offiah cash had nothing to do with Wigan's money troubles - they'd just sold Hanley to Leeds for half the fee.

What exactly did cause Wigan's financial troubles?I know what caused Leeds's

[RidingPie]

What exactly did cause Wigan's financial troubles?I know what caused Leeds's

If I remember correctly the Whitbread stand went WAY over budget and then Jack Robinson budgeted in to the finances winning the challenge cup. Obviously when that didn't happen it caused serious problems. I think there were other contributory factors but it was mostly those two. One, you never know with a building project and two was an appalling level of arrogance (which in hindsight I don't think Mo would have done had he still been there).

As with most clubs hitting financial problems it really boiled down to terrible business sense.

[Philm]

Weren't Wigan rumoured to be in debt in the tune of £7M when Whelan came to their rescue?

Edited by Philm, 24 January 2013 - 04:56 PM.

[RidingPie]

Weren't Wigan rumoured to be in debt in the tune of £7M when Whelan came to their rescue?

Yes, I believe most of that was down to the Whitbread stand. The foundations were flooded by the Dougie and what should have been a simple job turned in to a money sink.