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EU - In or Out?


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Poll: European Union - Should the UK be In or Out? (62 member(s) have cast votes)

European Union - Should the UK be In or Out?

  1. In (36 votes [58.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.06%

  2. Out (26 votes [41.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.94%

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#41 Saintslass

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:33 PM

It'll be a judgement on the economy that determines the outcome of the next election. Who do people trust (or least distrust, perhaps) to create jobs and keep them in employment with a roof over their head.

At present that would be the coalition, given the continued rise in employment.

#42 Methven Hornet

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:48 PM

Why do we have to wait until 2017 or 2018 for this vote? The separatists have wanted this referendum all their lives, why don’t they just get on with it now?

While they run scared, UK businesses will be crippled by uncertainty and foreign investors won’t want to invest in the country.

We need to know all the policies that the future UK government has in place if it wants to separate from the EU, what they’ll cost and how many jobs will be lost as a result. And we need to know all these things right now, in every last detail, in order that the electorate can know exactly what they’re voting for rather than being asked to endorse some British-nationalist pig in a poke.

;)


Seriously, this is all to do with the internal conflicts within the Tory Party and the perceived threat from UKIP (overstated - come the general election most defectors to UKIP will switch back to the Tories).

If the referendum takes place (and I have my doubts) then it will probably be similar to the 1975 plebiscite. The government will 're-negotiate' membership, win some limited concessions, and present these as some great breakthrough. They will obviously campaign for a yes vote, as will other mainstream parties, and the general consensus in the press, business and civic society will be that continued membership is essential. The support for withdrawal will disappear like snow off a dyke.
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#43 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 10:58 PM

I don't think Dave wants to leave the EU (labour and lib dems don't) but this is more a way of getting his MP's back in order and to snuff out any rebellion.

Dave seems to know that they need to stay on the middle ground to have any chance in elections. Many in his party seem to not agree or understand this. I get the impression that Dave wanted to change the party to get votes, where some of his MP's think the country is wrong rather than the party.
With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#44 John Drake

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:09 PM

At present that would be the coalition, given the continued rise in employment.


The coalition won't appear on the ballot paper, and it'll be about the economic situation as it is in 2015, not as it is now. It might be better, it could be a lot worse. The rise in employment can't be taken in isolation as an indicator of electoral success. If you once had a well paid full-time job, but are now scraping along in a 'new' but poorly paid part-time job and relying on working tax credits (now cut or capped) to survive, are you going to reward the incumbent government for your situation, or curse them for it? Figures can be presented to make any government look good, but votes in the ballot box will be based on each individual voter's actual experiences at the time. The last election is a good indicator. Although the economy was actually growing fairly well in the latter months of Gordon Brown's government, the electorate held them responsible for what had gone before and punished them for it.

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#45 Wolford6

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Posted 23 January 2013 - 11:12 PM

Much emphasis is placed on dissent within the Tory party membership, but in my everyday conversations I find plenty of disappointment with the Labour performance from lifelong supporters.

David Cameron v Ed Miliband v Nick Clegg v Nigel Farage
=
Lord Snooty v Little Lord Fauntleroy v Walter from Denis the Menace v Jeremy Clarkson

If Farage can't take votes from that lot, this country has had it.

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#46 Griff9of13

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 02:11 AM

The problem with UKIP is they want to take us out of the EU but then what? What are they proposing to do about the economy, schools, the NHS etc, etc? No one really knows. That's the problem with single issue parties, they focus solely on that issue at the expense of everything else. Fortunately most of the public realise this & give them a wide birth when it comes to general election time.

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#47 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 04:11 AM

The problem with UKIP is they want to take us out of the EU but then what? What are they proposing to do about the economy, schools, the NHS etc, etc? No one really knows. That's the problem with single issue parties, they focus solely on that issue at the expense of everything else. Fortunately most of the public realise this & give them a wide birth when it comes to general election time.

They are not just a single issue party but seemingly a single person party.

There is a reason they don't let most of their hierarcy on TV or radio...
With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#48 Methven Hornet

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 05:28 AM

They are not just a single issue party but seemingly a single person party.

There is a reason they don't let most of their hierarcy on TV or radio...


They have a hierarchy? :o
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#49 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 06:10 AM

They have a hierarchy? :o

I'll let you google who UKIP's 'Scotland leader' is. He is an interesting character...
With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#50 Shadow

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:25 AM

Because we can still decide for ourselves how to deal with the economic downturn (if indeed that is what it still is) within the context of our own country (its strengths and weaknesses) and we can do so without other countries determining what should be our standard, beyond the usual trading fluctuations.

The Greek financial crisis had nothing to do with their membership or otherwise of the Euro, it had everything to do with the entire country systematically spending money they hadn't got while evading or failing to collect any taxes, by being in the EU and Euro when the chickens finally came back to the Acropolis to roost there was at least a bail out plan to stop a collapse into bankruptcy.

Even the most superficial examination of the facts can only conclude that their situation was entirely caused by their own actions and entirely saved by their membership of the EU and Euro, unless that is of course you either are too young, under-educated or ill informed (or a combination of the three).

Edited by Shadow, 24 January 2013 - 07:29 AM.

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#51 Griff9of13

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 07:43 AM

The Greek financial crisis had nothing to do with their membership or otherwise of the Euro, it had everything to do with the entire country systematically spending money they hadn't got while evading or failing to collect any taxes, by being in the EU and Euro when the chickens finally came back to the Acropolis to roost there was at least a bail out plan to stop a collapse into bankruptcy.

Even the most superficial examination of the facts can only conclude that their situation was entirely caused by their own actions and entirely saved by their membership of the EU and Euro, unless that is of course you either are too young, under-educated or ill informed (or a combination of the three).


Or believe and trust what the likes of The Daily Wail, Express, #### etc have to say on the matter bears even a slight resemblance to the truth.

"it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it."

#52 Steve May

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:23 AM

It'll be a judgement on the economy that determines the outcome of the next election. Who do people trust (or least distrust, perhaps) to create jobs and keep them in employment with a roof over their head. That's always the key issue. Europe will be a footnote to the campaign. Recall William Hague's doomed 2001 Tory campaign slogan: 'Only 7 days to save the Pound". It made zero impression on the public or the result, regardless of the degree to which it obsessed certain sections of the Tory Party and the media.


Exactly. That slogan failed for two reasons. The first being that the Europe is way, way down the list of actual voters concerns. The second being that, since Gordon Brown was the chancellor at the time and was utterly against Britain joining the Euro, it was clearly bonkers to suggest that saving the Pound was ever worth talking about.

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#53 gingerjon

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:33 AM

Jon, stop being a wind-up merchant. ;)


But I did have a boozy lunch.

I just didn't have to operate on anyone or go for a drive afterwards.

But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity. And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.
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#54 Griff9of13

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:38 AM

Why do we need a referendum about this anyway? I know some say it's a big issue, but so are lots of things. Is it a bigger issue than the economy, the NHS reforms, the education reforms etc that this government are imposing? Not to me it isn't.

Some also argue that we need a say in the way the EU "imposes it's will on the UK". Well we already do. We elect 650 representatives to Westminster and another couple of hundred to the European parliament to have a say on our behalf. It's called parliamentary democracy.

I really do have a problem with the way the EU is portrayed by the press and some politicians - that there is a "them and us" relationship between the UK and the EU. Again this is completely the wrong attitude. Ever since we became full members we ARE the EU just as much as France, Germany etc. If we see ourselves as outsides, that is pretty much our problem, not the EUs.
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#55 Steve May

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:38 AM

http://www.telegraph...-no-choice.html

Interesting analysis here from Peter Oborne, one of the right's more sensible commentators.


The other interesting comment was from NIck Robinson on the BBC who noted that this speech had all the hallmarks of a budget speech - it can be lauded on the day, but might well unravel over the coming weeks. Both Gordon Brown and George Osbourne have had "triumphant" budgets go bad within a couple of weeks.

Time will tell.

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#56 Griff9of13

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity. And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.


Exactly, far more important than some far off, probably never, possibly, only IF Dave and his chums get re-elected pointless referendum.
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#57 nadera78

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:42 AM

But I did have a boozy lunch.

I just didn't have to operate on anyone or go for a drive afterwards.

But, back to the point, I would call a triple-dip recession a financial calamity. And that seems to be very clearly where we're heading.


But that triple dip is the fault of the snow, not Gideon.
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#58 gingerjon

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:43 AM

But that triple dip is the fault of the snow, not Gideon.


Everything is the fault of Gideon.
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#59 Griff9of13

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 09:47 AM

Oh, and just in case we are in any doubt about the wisdom of all this:

Posted Image

Posted Image

:lol:
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#60 WearyRhino

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Posted 24 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

Everything is the fault of Gideon.


Everything is the fault of the minor political party in the coalition who keep him, his chums and their policies in power.




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