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EU - In or Out?


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Poll: European Union - Should the UK be In or Out? (62 member(s) have cast votes)

European Union - Should the UK be In or Out?

  1. In (36 votes [58.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 58.06%

  2. Out (26 votes [41.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.94%

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#101 Padge

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:29 PM

Part of the problem the UK economy faces is the cost levied on industry by EU environmental legislation. Quite a bit of this is based on dubious theory and results in ludicrous practices.

£64 per tonne Landfill Tax is an absolute joke.

That'll be the same costs levied on other European economies who thrive far better than us under the exact same legislation.

Maybe we have the wrong people in control of our industry/economy, maybe we need to f-off the money grubbing accountants and hand back control to the engineers, scientists and adventurous entrepreneurs that built up our original industry. Maybe just maybe, Germany has got it right and we have got it wrong, the evidence is out there.

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#102 Saintslass

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:32 PM

I thought it was absolutely ridiculous to state that 'lefties' would welcome yet another dip into recession and to relish the thought of an economic struggle.

You might have thought it a ridiculous comment but did you see the glee of Balls (what an apt name that guy has) on the news tonight at the possibility of a triple dip? He was salivating at the thought of it. Many lefties would love the idea of a triple dip because they could then claim defeat for the coalition government. Some people can't see beyond their ideology. You may or may not have been one of those, I don't know, and so suggesting you might relish a triple dip for the reasons I have stated is not ridiculous at all. It may be erroneous in your case; but not ridiculous per se.

#103 JohnM

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

All part of the new sponsirship deal.!

#104 Saintslass

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:45 PM

Maybe we have the wrong people in control of our industry/economy, maybe we need to f-off the money grubbing accountants and hand back control to the engineers, scientists and adventurous entrepreneurs that built up our original industry. Maybe just maybe, Germany has got it right and we have got it wrong, the evidence is out there.

Germany has definitely got one thing right: they are broadening their export markets outside the EU and shrinking their export markets within the EU. That's wise. The UK, meanwhile, is not doing that.

We are also Germany's biggest trading partner within the EU at present. So we are important to Germany at the moment. That may be why Merkel is one of the European leaders who has recently had private talks with Cameron and who appears to be willing to discuss the UK's position. That and, of course, it is probably one of the brighter countries in that it realises the UK is a major contributor and a major trading partner within the EU also, and to lose that contributor (either wholly or in part) and trading partner could destabilise the EU.

Edited by Saintslass, 25 January 2013 - 09:45 PM.


#105 Padge

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

Germany has definitely got one thing right: they are broadening their export markets outside the EU and shrinking their export markets within the EU. That's wise. The UK, meanwhile, is not doing that.

We are also Germany's biggest trading partner within the EU at present. So we are important to Germany at the moment. That may be why Merkel is one of the European leaders who has recently had private talks with Cameron and who appears to be willing to discuss the UK's position. That and, of course, it is probably one of the brighter countries in that it realises the UK is a major contributor and a major trading partner within the EU also, and to lose that contributor (either wholly or in part) and trading partner could destabilise the EU.


The EU could spit us out and screw us up more than we would choke them by staying put.

then again as someone said earlier why should we trade with countries we have fought wars with like America.

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#106 Shadow

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

Some people can't see beyond their ideology.


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#107 JohnM

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:11 PM

I had kinda hoped that the rabid right would quit the Tories and join UKIP. That would then have strengthen the coalition and moderated the tory right. We must remain in the EU but I am comfortable with Cameron engageing in some French trade union negotiating tactics

#108 WearyRhino

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:23 PM

Germany has definitely got one thing right: they are broadening their export markets outside the EU and shrinking their export markets within the EU. That's wise. The UK, meanwhile, is not doing that.

We are also Germany's biggest trading partner within the EU at present. So we are important to Germany at the moment. That may be why Merkel is one of the European leaders who has recently had private talks with Cameron and who appears to be willing to discuss the UK's position. That and, of course, it is probably one of the brighter countries in that it realises the UK is a major contributor and a major trading partner within the EU also, and to lose that contributor (either wholly or in part) and trading partner could destabilise the EU.


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#109 Severus

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:55 PM

You might have thought it a ridiculous comment but did you see the glee of Balls (what an apt name that guy has) on the news tonight at the possibility of a triple dip? He was salivating at the thought of it. Many lefties would love the idea of a triple dip because they could then claim defeat for the coalition government. Some people can't see beyond their ideology. You may or may not have been one of those, I don't know, and so suggesting you might relish a triple dip for the reasons I have stated is not ridiculous at all. It may be erroneous in your case; but not ridiculous per se.

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#110 Northern Sol

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:27 PM

That'll be the same costs levied on other European economies who thrive far better than us under the exact same legislation.

Maybe we have the wrong people in control of our industry/economy, maybe we need to f-off the money grubbing accountants and hand back control to the engineers, scientists and adventurous entrepreneurs that built up our original industry. Maybe just maybe, Germany has got it right and we have got it wrong, the evidence is out there.


Germany's growth has been rubbish since the 80s.

#111 Wolford6

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

That'll be the same costs levied on other European economies who thrive far better than us under the exact same legislation.

Maybe we have the wrong people in control of our industry/economy, maybe we need to f-off the money grubbing accountants and hand back control to the engineers, scientists and adventurous entrepreneurs that built up our original industry. Maybe just maybe, Germany has got it right and we have got it wrong, the evidence is out there.


The fact is that other countries ignore the legislation that doesn't suit them. In this country Defra and the Environment Agency go out of their way to find reasons why something must come under EU legislation and fight tooth and nail to stop companies using a different interpretation of the worded legislation.

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#112 Griff9of13

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

The fact is that other countries ignore the legislation that doesn't suit them. In this country Defra and the Environment Agency go out of their way to find reasons why something must come under EU legislation and fight tooth and nail to stop companies using a different interpretation of the worded legislation.


And who's fault is that?

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#113 Wolford6

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:08 AM

And who's fault is that?


It's the mindset of UK Civil Servants. In the case of both Defra and the Environment Agency, the officers in the field get all the flak from manufacturers, companies and waste operators but, even if they agree with the argument, they are powerless to apply localised or site-specific conditions. The rules are set by a hierarchy who never get their boots dirty and operate from hq buildings remote from operational centres.

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#114 Northern Sol

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:10 AM

Well, the same rights across all workers are essential for a fair market.

So if we had Dickensian rights here for the market to be fair they would also need Dickensian rights in Slovakia.


On the other hand, we could be like southern Europe and award workers all kinds of rights and then wonder why youth unemployment is 50%.

#115 Griff9of13

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:41 AM

It's the mindset of UK Civil Servants. In the case of both Defra and the Environment Agency, the officers in the field get all the flak from manufacturers, companies and waste operators but, even if they agree with the argument, they are powerless to apply localised or site-specific conditions. The rules are set by a hierarchy who never get their boots dirty and operate from hq buildings remote from operational centres.


So not the EUs fault that we can't apply a little pragmatism when enforcing the rules/laws? The rest of Europe manages it why can't we? Also, if we take away the EU laws/rules will we take away the civil service mind set, or will they just turn to an alternative set of rules/laws to be pedantic about?
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#116 Wolford6

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:05 AM

If we had UK laws instead of EU laws, the legislation would go through after a consultation stage involving (for the waste industry) producers, contractors, local authorities, water companies, site operators, HSE, EA, Defra. That's what we had before, when he legislation was simpler, updated less often and worked a lot better.

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#117 Trojan

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:43 AM

I wonder why Italy, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg - and the rest don't have their own versions of UKIP? Why is it just us who are always uncertain whether we should be in or out? Why is our right wing press so hysterically anti Europe these days when they used to be so pro? What is their
hidden agenda?
Surely Cameron knows that you can't be part of a single market without a level playing field as far as employment laws and company regulation goes. You can't cherry pick the bits you like and ditch the bits you don't. But that seems to be what he and his party are saying to the British people.

I do, however think that he is frightened by UKIP. IN 1974 the legend has it that the miners overthrew the Heath government. What actually happened was that the Tories lost many marginal seats to Labour, especially in the West Midlands because Enoch Powell intervened and recommended people vote Labour because Labour were offering a referendum on Europe. For Enoch read UKIP in the present case. If the Tories lose votes to UKIP that could let Labour in by the back door
My view is that being out of the EU would be a disaster for this country. Those in favour cite Switzerland (sitting on half the world's gold stocks) and Norway (sitting on huge gas and oil reserves) These countries thrive beause of these benefits, but they are effectively members of the EU - they have to abide by all the EU regulations etc - but have no part in framing them. We'd be the same but without their economic advantages.

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#118 Saintslass

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

I wonder why Italy, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium and Luxembourg - and the rest don't have their own versions of UKIP? Why is it just us who are always uncertain whether we should be in or out?

I'm curious as to how you can sound so sure that other countries don't have their version of UKIP or that it is just us who are uncertain whether we should be 'in or out'. Can anyone know each European country well enough to state either of those positions with certainty?

Edited by Saintslass, 26 January 2013 - 12:24 PM.


#119 Saintslass

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:24 PM

If we had UK laws instead of EU laws, the legislation would go through after a consultation stage involving (for the waste industry) producers, contractors, local authorities, water companies, site operators, HSE, EA, Defra. That's what we had before, when he legislation was simpler, updated less often and worked a lot better.

Agreed.

#120 tim2

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 01:18 PM

I work for a private sector company that does a serious amount of business via exports, a large chunk of which goes to EU countries. We are owned by a German company, which is in turn owned by a large UK PLC. We are the sort of business that the UK needs more of - generating export revenues for high tech solutions and providing UK based jobs.

I know for sure that the large project we are currently doing for an EU based company, funded by an EU based agency, would not come to us if were outside the EU. It's unlikely we would make up our lost EU revenues from the US or Far East.

From a selfish point of view, I have to say to stay in. But in general, the only way we will be able to stand up to the increasing financial muscle of the Chinese in particular and other developing nations with large populations and little in the way of employment rights is to stay in the club.

On our own, we have little protection and if we think the US is our friend, think again if times are tough. They don't care about us, unless we are helping them in a war zone.
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