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RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE (ISSUE 397 - MAY 2014): Available to download now. Get the app from Apple Newsstand or GooglePlay, or click here to read it online now at Pocketmags.com - Print edition in shops from Friday, or click here to get it delivered by post in the UK or worldwide.

Rugby League World - April 2014
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New-look Championships ready for an Extraordinary 2013

RFL media release

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#61 keighley

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:06 PM

And yet sport in the USA seems to get along just fine without P&R.

Maybe their backwoodsmen don't have internet access yet?


No they don't have p and r, they have a conference system which allows all qualified participants to feast at the table, but that's a no no over here as well. All we want is ring fenced exclusivity for ever and ever more.

#62 Gav Wilson

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:12 PM

Well I wont be taking sky sports and premier sports up again until it comes back. I wonder how many other disillusioned people there are?


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#63 jannerboyuk

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 08:52 PM

No they don't have p and r, they have a conference system which allows all qualified participants to feast at the table, but that's a no no over here as well. All we want is ring fenced exclusivity for ever and ever more.

sorry mate I don't get that argument - ask Seattle sonics fans what they think about that, and many many more teams bought and sold and moved at the whim of rich men. Do any search of any area of the states and you will find city after city in the 150,000 - 200,000 range and even much bigger, in fact whole regions happily supporting minor league teams that will never get into the majors, and certainly in no structured way. The conference system is just a way to determine who gets to play offs not a way of giving all a fair go.
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
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#64 sweaty craiq

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:20 PM

I love sweaty craiq


Anyone who doesn't at least go half way to agreeing that the removal of P&R has had a detrimental affect on Championship clubs is just plain argumentative for arguments sake.

I can't see it coming back, even though I wish it would.


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#65 sweaty craiq

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 10:26 PM

You can't cope with logical arguments can you?

(FYI I have been a supporter of a current CC team for nearly 40 years.)


What is a CC team, I can work out one C is for Championship are two Championship Club?
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#66 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:23 PM

sorry mate I don't get that argument - ask Seattle sonics fans what they think about that, and many many more teams bought and sold and moved at the whim of rich men. Do any search of any area of the states and you will find city after city in the 150,000 - 200,000 range and even much bigger, in fact whole regions happily supporting minor league teams that will never get into the majors, and certainly in no structured way. The conference system is just a way to determine who gets to play offs not a way of giving all a fair go.


How many of those minor league teams have been successful major league teams in the past?

The model most people in the UK are familiar with is footballs P&R system. RL used to have a very good one too with 4up/down which created lots of interest, sadness and joy. Now it is utter ####

#67 Northern Sol

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:36 PM

well Wire are bookies favourite and appeared in the last GF.
You suggested monotony by saying Wigan would probably meet Leeds 'again' at OT. Set up a prediction thread, I suspect you'd get a minority predicting Leeds v Wigan - yet you suggest this is likely 'again' - 14ish years after their only ever meeting in the final.


Can you think of any other recent Leeds Wigan finals? Not too hard is it?

SL has been dominated by four sides: Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Bradford - every single title has been won by one of these four clubs - not only that but only two other clubs Wire and Hull have made final appearences (1 each). I think that's monotomy.

#68 jannerboyuk

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:38 PM

How many of those minor league teams have been successful major league teams in the past?

The model most people in the UK are familiar with is footballs P&R system. RL used to have a very good one too with 4up/down which created lots of interest, sadness and joy. Now it is utter ####

whats that got to do with the price of fish? Your team fails in the states, it gets sold to someone else thousands f miles away, or if someone just fancies moving then they do - the Brooklyn dodgers for example. I prefer p and r but p and r fans holding up the states as a model is just plain weird, no amount of semantics will cover that
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#69 Dave T

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:52 PM

Can you think of any other recent Leeds Wigan finals? Not too hard is it?

SL has been dominated by four sides: Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Bradford - every single title has been won by one of these four clubs - not only that but only two other clubs Wire and Hull have made final appearences (1 each). I think that's monotomy.

my memory must be playin tricks - I cant recall another Wigan v Leeds gf.

#70 Northern Sol

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:54 PM

my memory must be playin tricks - I cant recall another Wigan v Leeds gf.


No, but think Challenge Cup. That's what I was thinking when I wrote that. Only obvious I had remembered it as being a gf.

#71 Padge

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Posted 25 January 2013 - 11:57 PM

Can you think of any other recent Leeds Wigan finals? Not too hard is it?

SL has been dominated by four sides: Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Bradford - every single title has been won by one of these four clubs - not only that but only two other clubs Wire and Hull have made final appearences (1 each). I think that's monotomy.

So in days of yore when Huddersfield won everything it was perfect, then again Widnes (the cup Kings) and Hull in the good old days just shared the spoils,

Bradford are now, it seems, out for a while and another team will step up.

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#72 keighley

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:39 AM

sorry mate I don't get that argument - ask Seattle sonics fans what they think about that, and many many more teams bought and sold and moved at the whim of rich men. Do any search of any area of the states and you will find city after city in the 150,000 - 200,000 range and even much bigger, in fact whole regions happily supporting minor league teams that will never get into the majors, and certainly in no structured way. The conference system is just a way to determine who gets to play offs not a way of giving all a fair go.


I didnt say the team couldn t be moved. They can and they do get moved as do the Crusaders, the Broncos and the most famous, the Wigan, Liverpool, London, Huyton, Runcorn, Prescott team in RL. The Sonics, the Colts and any others that moved were never removed from the league.

The minor league teams you quote are the equivalent of Conference and Barla teams over here . All member teams of the NFL, NBA, NHL and major league baseball are in conferences of their requisite leagues . All are equal, there are no lower divisons and hence no need for p and r. If new teams want to join the league, they apply, and, if accepted, join and are equal to the others. They expand without removing existing teams.

The minor league teams you quote are like the current twinned CC teams except that they are not members of the major league but have a working relationship with a major league team to play and develop their young prospects. They are true feeder teams.

RL has neither p and r nor conferences, so whilst all teams are members of the RFL,they are not equal, they are divided into divisions based of playing standard and there is no movement into the top league without a current top tier team being removed. The removed team may not have finished at the bottom, they are just unlucky.

The logjam of teams wanting to be in the top flight is holding back the aspirations of the better Championship teams. This can be resolved in the typical British fashion by p and r. This creates problems for the relegated team. It can be resolved by licencing although this is a slow and tortuous process and the removed team still has problems, or may have because it has never actually been done yet so we don t really know..

The americans resolve this by having licencing or franchising but link it to conferences so that they create seperate but equal divisions within the league and can expand and admit qualified teams but not boot out an existing member team.

I think this is a good way to go to solve the problems the top CC clubs are experiencing in moving up to he top tier. There are no more than three or four CC teams that can even be considered for top tier status and I would let them all in and create a two conference top tier SL. The remaining CC clubs could compete in a lower tier competition and be admitted to the top tier as and when they were ready. The big drawback is that the money is not there to support a conference style expanded SL, so we are left with p and r as an alternative. However we dont have that either and our top Cc clubs are stuck in limbo as regards any ambitions for SL.

I am sorry I am rambling a bit as i am very tired but that is my take on the p and r versus conference solution to the top tier ambitions for non included teams problem.

#73 keighley

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:41 AM

How many of those minor league teams have been successful major league teams in the past?

The model most people in the UK are familiar with is footballs P&R system. RL used to have a very good one too with 4up/down which created lots of interest, sadness and joy. Now it is utter ####


No four upand four down was too much. it created major yo yo itis

#74 keighley

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 02:45 AM

whats that got to do with the price of fish? Your team fails in the states, it gets sold to someone else thousands f miles away, or if someone just fancies moving then they do - the Brooklyn dodgers for example. I prefer p and r but p and r fans holding up the states as a model is just plain weird, no amount of semantics will cover that


What is to stop any SL owner from moving his team to another City. It has been done recently when Crusaders moved from South Wales to North Wales.

#75 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:17 AM

Can you think of any other recent Leeds Wigan finals? Not too hard is it?

SL has been dominated by four sides: Leeds, Wigan, Saints, Bradford - every single title has been won by one of these four clubs - not only that but only two other clubs Wire and Hull have made final appearences (1 each). I think that's monotomy.

No, but think Challenge Cup. That's what I was thinking when I wrote that. Only obvious I had remembered it as being a gf.

There's been one GF and one CCF in all of the SL era to feature Leeds vs Wigan. The same number as Hull vs Saints. In fact Leeds vs Wire equalled that in just one season. So to talk like Leeds vs Wigan is some kind of monotony is off the mark.

On top of that, you've tried to get out of this by saying that the big clubs never change, and that Wire aren't included because they've only appeared in one GF. It's weird how we can easily ignore 3 CC victories out of the last 4 years, but when we need to find an extra final to push Leeds vs Wigan to a massive 2 it's ok.

The favourites for the title are Wire. I'll start with them as having a better chance of being in the GF than Wigan. That kind of goes against your monotony that isn't there.
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#76 The Parksider

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

RL used to have a very good one too with 4up/down which created lots of interest, sadness and joy.


It was fun I remember it very well, it shook everyone up.

The good old days.

Hope your not suggesting it for today when clubs will have to unload the re-buy whole squads year by year and some clubs wouldn't win a game in SL, and take 90 point hidings.

#77 jannerboyuk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:28 AM

I didnt say the team couldn t be moved. They can and they do get moved as do the Crusaders, the Broncos and the most famous, the Wigan, Liverpool, London, Huyton, Runcorn, Prescott team in RL. The Sonics, the Colts and any others that moved were never removed from the league.

The minor league teams you quote are the equivalent of Conference and Barla teams over here . All member teams of the NFL, NBA, NHL and major league baseball are in conferences of their requisite leagues . All are equal, there are no lower divisons and hence no need for p and r. If new teams want to join the league, they apply, and, if accepted, join and are equal to the others. They expand without removing existing teams.

The minor league teams you quote are like the current twinned CC teams except that they are not members of the major league but have a working relationship with a major league team to play and develop their young prospects. They are true feeder teams.

RL has neither p and r nor conferences, so whilst all teams are members of the RFL,they are not equal, they are divided into divisions based of playing standard and there is no movement into the top league without a current top tier team being removed. The removed team may not have finished at the bottom, they are just unlucky.

The logjam of teams wanting to be in the top flight is holding back the aspirations of the better Championship teams. This can be resolved in the typical British fashion by p and r. This creates problems for the relegated team. It can be resolved by licencing although this is a slow and tortuous process and the removed team still has problems, or may have because it has never actually been done yet so we don t really know..

The americans resolve this by having licencing or franchising but link it to conferences so that they create seperate but equal divisions within the league and can expand and admit qualified teams but not boot out an existing member team.

I think this is a good way to go to solve the problems the top CC clubs are experiencing in moving up to he top tier. There are no more than three or four CC teams that can even be considered for top tier status and I would let them all in and create a two conference top tier SL. The remaining CC clubs could compete in a lower tier competition and be admitted to the top tier as and when they were ready. The big drawback is that the money is not there to support a conference style expanded SL, so we are left with p and r as an alternative. However we dont have that either and our top Cc clubs are stuck in limbo as regards any ambitions for SL.

I am sorry I am rambling a bit as i am very tired but that is my take on the p and r versus conference solution to the top tier ambitions for non included teams problem.

thats ok mate nothing wrong with going into detail to make your point, but you reaching to make a point. Those supposedly conference level teams are professional outfits playing in pretty large cities. They are excluded because they can't satisfy purely financial considerations. The system doesn't care about tradition, passion or a sense of a team belonging to a place. The fact that the rfl have adopted elements is hardly a strong endorsement! I love Yankee sports but apart from some elements of revenue sharing its a vicious unsentimental one that I rather we leave to our cousins!
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#78 jannerboyuk

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:34 AM

What is to stop any SL owner from moving his team to another City. It has been done recently when Crusaders moved from South Wales to North Wales.

sure thing but why do you think I'm arguing that the rfl has a perfect system or even that it contrasts entirely with the yank one? I'm arguing that the yank one which you seem to want to emulate is a pretty mental one. Although ice hockey in Los Angeles is pretty cool :)
PROUD TO BE A MEMBER OF http://www.rugbyleaguecares.org/ and http://www.walesrugb...-wales-for-2013
Predictions for the future -
Crusaders RL to get a franchise for 2012 onwards -WRONG
Widnes Vikings also to get a franchise - RIGHT
Crusaders RL to do the double over Widnes and finish five places ahead of them -WRONG
Widnes Vikings NOT to dominate rugby league in years to come! STILL TO COME

http://www.pitchero.com/clubs/cardiffdemonsrlfc/
http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk/

I promise to pay �10 to the charity of Bomb Jacks choice if Widnes Millionaires finish above the battling underdogs Crusaders RL. I OWE A TENNER!
http://www.jaxaxe.co...89/Default.aspx

#79 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 09:37 AM

No four upand four down was too much. it created major yo yo itis


Not all teams were yo-yo, but even if they were, so what? It was far better to be a fan of a youo team back then, than be forever stuck in the second division nowadays

#80 Northern Sol

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 10:16 AM

There's been one GF and one CCF in all of the SL era to feature Leeds vs Wigan. The same number as Hull vs Saints. In fact Leeds vs Wire equalled that in just one season. So to talk like Leeds vs Wigan is some kind of monotony is off the mark.

On top of that, you've tried to get out of this by saying that the big clubs never change, and that Wire aren't included because they've only appeared in one GF. It's weird how we can easily ignore 3 CC victories out of the last 4 years, but when we need to find an extra final to push Leeds vs Wigan to a massive 2 it's ok.

The favourites for the title are Wire. I'll start with them as having a better chance of being in the GF than Wigan. That kind of goes against your monotony that isn't there.


I think it odd to argue that Wigan and Leeds winning trophies doesn't represent "business as usual". Sl has been utterly dominated by four clubs to the extent that there have only ever been two losing finalists from outside these four. And of those four, Bradford are screwed and no better than Huddersfield and Saints are off the boil.

Wire might win SL but it would be a breakthrough if they did, not "just another season".





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