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what do you really want?


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#21 marshy1

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:27 AM

Truely amazing opinions there. If I was the chairman of the club i'd be sorely tempted to close shop and walk away.
Haven't we had a couple of meetings where the situation of the Warrington link was explained, welcomed by our head coach due to the better training facilities and players whom may be at his disposal and a time for fans to air any concerns. At both those meetings I recall the mood was cordial and certainly I don't recall any of the doubts that have surfaced on here being raised then.
Yet here we are less than a week away and some people's opinions are it will be a disaster. As someone put had Swinton sat on the fence and say Warrington had gone in with Leigh, I can imagine the tone towards the club in that situation.
An ideal world would allow us to bring our own talent through the ranks,well it ain't been ideal for many years. If this move allows the clubs finances to remain solvent then quite frankly I'm all for it,especially if any savings are channelled into the Agecroft project and I guess time will tell on that score.
To have talk of the team disintegrating part way through the season is frankly an astonishing claim when you look at the efforts of Steve Mc and the coaching team. I believe if Steve was in anyway unhappy at the link he would walk, the fact he hasn't endorses him belief in the set up.

#22 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:48 AM

You miss the point what iam saying the players can burst a gut get themselves super fit training and still will not be selected so is this fair and no they are not babies they are men who want to play for SWINTON and as for getting paid most of the team only get paid if they play this is a fact ask them I HAVE so you sit back say nothing and let the players go iam sure they will thank you for your support but never mind you can always go watching Warrington next season

I knew id miss the point.
My support has been unflinching for 43 years.
And I guess now what you're saying our own squad is too big!
I still think the players will not behave in such a childish way. And we've played three friendlies ans everyone has featured?

#23 PhillH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:54 PM

The club has potential to attract considerably more than circa 800 to a home match. I find it depressing that some contributors seem to believe this is a glass ceiling of support.

I also wonder if it came to the Lions formally operating as Warrington Wolves A Team if they would still go along and give their whole hearted backing. If not - there must be a line in the sand somewhere across which we are uncomfortable to go. It cannot be an unqualified good concept. There must be a limit.

In the circumstances of; an exile of more than 20 years with multiple home venues; virtually no visible profile in the home community; an often antagonistic relationship with the local authority; precious little success on the field, and; close to zero promotional activity (during all that time and even prior); it is actually pretty amazing that the Lions' crowds haven't sunk to an even lower ebb. The circumstances for attracting in new supporters could hardly have been any worse. The circumstances for keeping longer established supporters could hardly have been any worse. How good would attendances be if at least some of these things had been properly addressed?

Surely we have learned by now that the key to achievement of sustained greater success is not to throw money at the team without firstly addressing the underlying problems that are limiting the club from reaching its full potential. Its virtually impossible to effectively market a team called Swinton that plays in Leigh, trains in Padgate and contains 50% Warrington players. Yes we have evolved though all the background history, much of which has a central theme of gross mismanagement by the way, but for people new to the area or aged under 20?? This is why true delivery of Agecroft has to be top of the list, but there are also other things such as forming some productive partnerships to enable the club to infiltrate the community - at least define a target audience and show some initiative to get them engaged.

I can understand the attraction of using Warrington's facilities for some training, for years the players have been using amateur level facilities, but this should not replace the desire to at some point develop some better quality facilities nearer home with some relevence to the home community. Learn from how the Wolves have done it - i.e. in partnership with the education sector. The club's leaders ought to be giving the message to local politicians, NHS officials etc - why don't we try and do something like this in the Swinton and Pendlebury area, an area with much greater social needs than the Warrington area. This can be a link between professional rugby league and the quality of life / opportunites available to people who live in that community - thus the reason why political level support can be justified. But we don't appear to be making that argument.

Gareth Walker confirms in today's League Express that the Lions currently have the lowest number of players directly signed up of any club in the Championship. So we are at least the furthest engaged club on the receiving end of this concept as things stand.
Rugby League - great game, shame about the administration.

#24 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:21 PM

Im beginning to think you live in a parallel universe.
Which local government, nhs authority or education authority has any money to waste in a rugby league partnership?
Working in the public sector there is no money!
You are NOT the only one with high expectations.
You are NOT the only one to want the best for Swinton
If this is what you believe by us being happy with the status quo then you are more mis guided than I have ever thought before.
Just to remind you in the years 1972 to 1992 we won virtually ###### all either. We were in town in the community.
I wonder how many times you are going to voice your displeasure at this venture? Every week every day?
The plans you suggest are fantastic. ..but they at present are unattainable. The reasons are complex. The solution even more so.
None of us contributors who are supportive of the merger want to play anywhere but swinton with a team full of locals...do you really think we want anything different?

If this venture doesn't work why is it Warrington a team or bust?
Why can't we just go back to how it was before?

I am here in the real world where everything is broken.
But I'm enjoying it and being optimistic. Give it a try.

#25 PhillH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 03:34 PM

Im beginning to think you live in a parallel universe.
Which local government, nhs authority or education authority has any money to waste in a rugby league partnership?
Working in the public sector there is no money!
You are NOT the only one with high expectations.
You are NOT the only one to want the best for Swinton
If this is what you believe by us being happy with the status quo then you are more mis guided than I have ever thought before.
Just to remind you in the years 1972 to 1992 we won virtually ###### all either. We were in town in the community.
I wonder how many times you are going to voice your displeasure at this venture? Every week every day?
The plans you suggest are fantastic. ..but they at present are unattainable. The reasons are complex. The solution even more so.
None of us contributors who are supportive of the merger want to play anywhere but swinton with a team full of locals...do you really think we want anything different?

If this venture doesn't work why is it Warrington a team or bust?
Why can't we just go back to how it was before?

I am here in the real world where everything is broken.
But I'm enjoying it and being optimistic. Give it a try.


Look upon the idea of partnerships as "a waste" if you so wish, but to my way of thinking there is plenty of potential for well thought out initiatives to deliver very worthwhile benefits directly relevent to the needs of the local area and therefore be "money well spent". Plus there is a huge amount of evidence from other areas to show positive outcomes can be achieved when these things are done well. Now who's being the pessimist?

If Dr Koukash completes his buyout of Salford City Council's share in the Salford City Stadium next week it ought to equate to roughly a £20-25m unplanned windfall to council coffers, perhaps just a modest slice of that could be made available to at least do some early facilitating and also level the playing field between the support given to the two local sides. Just a thought.

Perhaps you could ask Trevor Barton how many people told him LSV would never happen. The only problem is likely to be that by about 2007 he lost count. Were you a Doubting Thomas? If so, he proved you wrong! Now LSV is up and running, do you think the venture was/is wasteful? Perhaps more importantly - do you think the people of Leigh view it as having been a waste?

We have two multi £million public sector building projects currently ongoing in the Borough - the new Moorside High School and the new St Ambrose High School (shortly to be expanded to accomodate pupils from St George's in Walkden). Plus another huge development that involves the private sector on former NHS land at "Nightingale Gardens" aka the former Children's Hospital. The landscape is being changed, some things are still possible. There has to be room for vision and good ideas and progress, even when times are in some ways hard.

I did not say that it is "Warrington A or bust". What I did say is that there has to be a limit on how far the concept of a partnership can be taken. Interesting that you have used the phrase "merger" - the ultimate extent and perish the thought, surely? What we don't currently have is a clear and realistic vision of a better future for Swinton RLFC in its own right, within which there should be a defined but restricted roll for the relationship with Warrington to play a positive part. Hopefully the end goal IS NOT a "merger".

"Why can't we just go back to how it was before?" Because if you keep doing what you have always done, you will keep getting what you have always got. And according to you, that's not very much. The question I ask is: Why can't things be BETTER than how it was before?

Your overriding sentiment appears to be, "We are rubbish, have pretty much always been rubbish, and there is no realistic way we will ever cease being rubbish". And you call that OPTIMISM?
Rugby League - great game, shame about the administration.

#26 iomlion

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

PhillH,

I have never seen anyone write such inflammatory nonsense for the apparent sake of it.

We all want the same thing in essence but you appear to live in a utopian world where whatever you wish for comes true. You obviously cannot compare Leigh and what happened there to us or we would be in exactly the same position. People are different so owners of clubs are different, local councils are different. We can aspire to be the very best but reality dictates we are limited to what we have and the funds/means available at the time.

We could go it alone and leave the Warrington angle out of the equation but I guarantee the same whiners would be on here complaining we were in the lower echelons with no ambition.

What do you want that is genuinely attainable given the present management, funds and support? And I mean what can you suggest be done, not what we all imagine could be done given an infinite amount of time and funds. Give me examples and tell us all what you have done to progress them outside of this forum.

I hope you have a page full because I really want to believe you are not just a whingeing know all.

#27 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

Look upon the idea of partnerships as "a waste" if you so wish, but to my way of thinking there is plenty of potential for well thought out initiatives to deliver very worthwhile benefits directly relevent to the needs of the local area and therefore be "money well spent". Plus there is a huge amount of evidence from other areas to show positive outcomes can be achieved when these things are done well. Now who's being the pessimist?

If Dr Koukash completes his buyout of Salford City Council's share in the Salford City Stadium next week it ought to equate to roughly a £20-25m unplanned windfall to council coffers, perhaps just a modest slice of that could be made available to at least do some early facilitating and also level the playing field between the support given to the two local sides. Just a thought.

Perhaps you could ask Trevor Barton how many people told him LSV would never happen. The only problem is likely to be that by about 2007 he lost count. Were you a Doubting Thomas? If so, he proved you wrong! Now LSV is up and running, do you think the venture was/is wasteful? Perhaps more importantly - do you think the people of Leigh view it as having been a waste?

We have two multi £million public sector building projects currently ongoing in the Borough - the new Moorside High School and the new St Ambrose High School (shortly to be expanded to accomodate pupils from St George's in Walkden). Plus another huge development that involves the private sector on former NHS land at "Nightingale Gardens" aka the former Children's Hospital. The landscape is being changed, some things are still possible. There has to be room for vision and good ideas and progress, even when times are in some ways hard.

I did not say that it is "Warrington A or bust". What I did say is that there has to be a limit on how far the concept of a partnership can be taken. Interesting that you have used the phrase "merger" - the ultimate extent and perish the thought, surely? What we don't currently have is a clear and realistic vision of a better future for Swinton RLFC in its own right, within which there should be a defined but restricted roll for the relationship with Warrington to play a positive part. Hopefully the end goal IS NOT a "merger".

"Why can't we just go back to how it was before?" Because if you keep doing what you have always done, you will keep getting what you have always got. And according to you, that's not very much. The question I ask is: Why can't things be BETTER than how it was before?
our overriding sentiment appears to be, "We are rubbish, have pretty much always been rubbish, and there is no realistic way we will ever cease being rubbish". And you call that OPTIMISM?


That reply is pure nonsense.
I cannot even find the enthusiasm to reply. Its laughable.

#28 juliancaine

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:12 PM

super league clubs cant even get it right phil, watch inside out tonight 7.30pm bbc1 if they cant get it right what hope have we got?.

#29 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 05:32 PM

No no no Julian...you and Phil are the optimists!
Ive been spun so comprehensively that I am the doubting Thomas

Super league is great. All the clubs are in the black. Theres an endless supply of money even though first time buyers cant even secure a mortgage and we run out of ambulances about an hour into every day.


I say again just in case no one heard me first time. Agecroft will never be built. The "merger" with Warrington is rubbish. John Kidd never did owt for Swinton. "DR" Koukash is not only a real doctor but hes as rich as John Whittaker,and Philh was born with the ability to smile he just chooses not to.

Ps Dale Cunniffe was rubbish.

I plan to repeat this every week after every game until we all agree.
We are all doomed!

#30 Bryce

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:00 PM

Mark, I preferred it when you referred to him as Ming.

I sincerely hope that in your future posts you refer to him as Ming as it shines a light in my otherwise tedious life. I am, after all, a Swinton fan.

#31 iomlion

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:03 PM

Mark,

I think you need a holiday lol, I am there for you if you need a break.

My son is on for a first in BSc Computer Science and he says forums are the cess pit of the Internet.

It would be boring if we agreed.......ever!



#32 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:24 PM

your son is right and obviously has his mothers brains...and looks hopefully ;0

#33 Barnie

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:34 PM

Mark,

I think you need a holiday lol, I am there for you if you need a break.

My son is on for a first in BSc Computer Science and he says forums are the cess pit of the Internet.

It would be boring if we agreed.......ever!


to be fair i dont think you need any form of qualification to come to that conclusion. its a load of victor meldrews giving their take on rugby league with the majority of opinions being shot down in smoke by other budding victors! (of which i count myself in that description)

and thats why i love and hate this forum in equal measures!
Dont worry, it will soon be Christmas!

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#34 iomlion

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:47 PM

Mark,
Many thanks, I get better with age. All brains from mum.

Barnie,
Victor Meldrew was happy go lucky compared with this cheery lot lol.

#35 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:54 PM

to be fair i dont think you need any form of qualification to come to that conclusion. its a load of victor meldrews giving their take on rugby league with the majority of opinions being shot down in smoke by other budding victors! (of which i count myself in that description)

and thats why i love and hate this forum in equal measures!

No barnie you're wrong
Ha ha

#36 mark richardson

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 06:57 PM

Mark,
Many thanks, I get better with age. All brains from mum.

Barnie,
Victor Meldrew was happy go lucky compared with this cheery lot lol.

Yes my dads a bright chap sometimes. . Just think though that if your mum and my dad are the bright ones wtf are we swinton fans?? They're to blame!


#37 PhillH

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

PhillH,

I have never seen anyone write such inflammatory nonsense for the apparent sake of it.

We all want the same thing in essence but you appear to live in a utopian world where whatever you wish for comes true. You obviously cannot compare Leigh and what happened there to us or we would be in exactly the same position. People are different so owners of clubs are different, local councils are different. We can aspire to be the very best but reality dictates we are limited to what we have and the funds/means available at the time.

We could go it alone and leave the Warrington angle out of the equation but I guarantee the same whiners would be on here complaining we were in the lower echelons with no ambition.

What do you want that is genuinely attainable given the present management, funds and support? And I mean what can you suggest be done, not what we all imagine could be done given an infinite amount of time and funds. Give me examples and tell us all what you have done to progress them outside of this forum.

I hope you have a page full because I really want to believe you are not just a whingeing know all.


Clearly the first thing is the new ground. I believe it would help the chances of a good outcome if the whole project were opened up. That is a lesson worth taking on board from what wasn't done well at Barton but was done well at Leigh. Get supportive people on board on a broader basis. It will help in the long run and generate interest too.

There's a lot of value in doing a comparison with other areas and other projects. Starting with the numerous stadiums that have either been built from new / totally redeveloped / in the planning in recent years. There is a seriously big portfolio; varying sizes, varying sports, with varying degrees of success - all sorts of positive things that could be replicated and mistakes best avoided. Of course the solution needs tailoring to the local circumstances, but fundamentally if the likes of Dewsbury, York, Batley (Mount Pleasant is now truly a lovely ground), FC United, etc etc etc have been able to do something good, we should be asking why can't Swinton also do something good? Our community definitely has the talent within it. We were tenants at the very modest Park Lane long enough - hardly an architectural icon - I used to look around bemused why it wasn't possible to at least replicate it inside M27, at least then you'd have a foothold to start from....

A key objective being: Make the council really want the club playing back in the area. That unlocks resources and makes life a lot easier. Plus a lot of what is needed to achieve that objective is stage management and doesn't really cost anything. John Wilkinson was a past master at it.

The next tier of work should be an openly available strategy of marketing and community development work intended to target an identified audience of people to boost the club's profile, make it relevant and attract the new generations of support plus hopefully attract sponsors. Some of this could begin pronto. Could include things similar to the youth team tournament that preceded Ian Watson's testimonial - why not repeat the exercise on a periodic basis throughout the season? Work with the schools to get kids involved and the parents come along too - hold events on matchday. Help local companies deliver their corporate responsibility agenda - an obvious big target at the moment being ASDA.

Partnerships are needed with as many local stakeholders as possible - a good starting point would be to get a visible Community Development Officer in post and get that person to every meeting of the Swinton Community Committee, start to build relationships with local NGOs, schools, health services, sports clubs, council officers. Be seen. Understand current issues. Explore common objectives. Explore funding opportunities, likely to be a combination of both grants and sponsorships.

I've done more than my fair share of campaigning on this issue with the powers that be over the years, a proportion of which the board moderator is aware of as he also made a contribution to the M27 Sports and Community Project several years back. One of the things that ought to be fixed and would cost nothing is to re-establish a functioning framework through which the Supporters Trust could be engaged at strategic level. That firstly needs the Trust to get its board position and share holding back. Energise some volunteers in the right way and a lot more things would be possible without much of an outlay.

For example the Mayor is on the record as being a stated fan of Supporters Trusts, something he showed by deed when agreeing to be the Honorary President of M27SCP when acting as the MP for Eccles and it came up again surrounding the problems at Salford City Reds. He opened a few doors back then and has even more power to his elbow now. Engage him in the right way and there is every reason to believe that some worthwhile advice and opportunities would result again, which could only help the chances of getting Agecroft up and running and off to a good start.
Rugby League - great game, shame about the administration.

#38 iomlion

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:43 PM

Well you gave me the page lol.

All great ideas that I wouldn't argue against but you miss my overall point. For whatever reason be it financial, time or drive these common sense ideas are not being developed...that I know of......therefore whilst I appreciate the matter needs raising, maybe not on pretty much every thread and not stoking up nonsensical arguments when bottom line is we all agree on the fundamentals.

I don't know if you appreciate the fact that most who have a pop at your posts do so out of frustration as opposed to a complete aversion to the majority of your ideas. The problem is ideas cost nothing and its easy to knock people for not taking up ideas, even when they are common sense. We don't know their reasons and should cut them some slack...the club is still functioning and even if not always to your liking, are striving to achieve the best they can on the field with what is available. Maybe a sticky be created with fans genuine ideas of what can be improved and how......I'm sure club officials and players look at the forum at some point and they could check out an ideas thread without getting caught up in bickering?

#39 hilly

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:40 PM

Lets sum up the pros ond cons on this topic it seems the pros are Warrington help us out with players and training facility's the cons our own players get pushed threw the door the kids don't have to spend any money from there T.V money on players we will lose our identity we will never get a new stadium and will soon be playing our games at Warrington we might as well jump into bed with Salford and become there feeder club and play our games there it's a JOKE we need to be SWINTON and have our own players our own identity our own ground the club owners will have to stand up and be counted for the sake of SWINTON LIONS or sit back and be swallowed up by super league

#40 iomlion

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:43 PM

We all know what we want. I'm just going outside to shake the funds from my money tree. Won't be long.




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