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#181 stewpot01

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:47 PM

Read this. Here is the enthusiastic support for a team in York, and the attendances in a Championship winning season gives you an idea of just how reaaly mad keen they are on the game (not)

http://www.yorkpress.../9676802.print/

#182 keighley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:48 PM

The city isn't big enough and the transport links are poor, though they do have a lot of farm tracks to places with populations of 6.

Broncos are in the wrong place as well.



I don't haver a map with me but arn't York quite near the A! and on a main line rail route with trains to Leeds a regular occurence. They certainly attract hundreds of thousands of tourists who have no trouble getting there.

How big do you want the city to be . 200, 000 is a decent size.

#183 Trojan

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:49 PM

The city isn't big enough and the transport links are poor, though they do have a lot of farm tracks to places with populations of 6.

Broncos are in the wrong place as well.

Transport links to York are excellent. Right on the East Coast Main Line, and on the cross country route too, and if say you were travelling from Wigan, once you hit the M61 at Westhoughton it's motorway most of the way and dual carriageway the rest of the way. I can be in York from here in 30 minutes.
Anyone from Wigan describing transport links anywhere else as poor should visit an optician. Wigan is a bye-word for traffic problems and Wigans' ground seems to have been situated with causing traffic chaos in mind. The last twice I watched RL in Wigan, I either left my car at Hindley and got the train, or parked on Darlington Street and walked!

Edited by Trojan, 29 January 2013 - 08:56 PM.

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#184 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:50 PM

Not according to Mark Aston, Karl Harrison and Daryll Powell who are all of the opinion that where the game is heading is not good. Harrison has said that he would have never made the grade as he was a late developer if todays system was in place in his day. And all 3 I have much respect for both as coaches and players.

And how does the RFL intend to help the North East or the Midlands which dont have a semi Pro team linked with a SL team? And the heartlands are seeing the likes of Union and Soccer increase their profile and development http://www.halifaxco...ation-1-5349922 . If the sport is not careful it will lose even more ground while it stands still and thinking linking a couple of semi pro clubs to SL will do. Grassroots is vital for the development of both the sport at pro and amateur level. Win win situation? Thats your RFL Propaganda again. Lets see how this all goes this season first.But a number of people who have way more experience and knowledge of the game than you or me put together have massive doubts and have spoken about them in public


Lizzy, I'm glad you have chosen to detract from Superleague and concentrate on junior development. I take your points, but I do wish you would not just castigate the RFL where your devil incarnate Wood resides, but give us the benefit of your own ideas about what can be done in difficult circumstances.

Aston and Powell were upset about the changes but they are paid coaches at clubs who want Superleague so that coloured their judgements.

Harrison did not come out with them at the same time, but is in the same boat - worried that their clubs pole position for SL may be upset by a strengthening of rival CC clubs.

Finally I well remember a lithe Karl Harrison rampaging from second row down at Bramley as a kid. I'd be interested in looking back on the facts here but the great man honed his trade with the littlest of CC clubs, I was there.....

#185 stewpot01

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:51 PM

I don't haver a map with me but arn't York quite near the A! and on a main line rail route with trains to Leeds a regular occurence. They certainly attract hundreds of thousands of tourists who have no trouble getting there.

How big do you want the city to be . 200, 000 is a decent size.


And their average attendances last year dropped by a 1,000 a week. why won't you accept that York is NOT a RL City'

#186 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:52 PM

Then why not give me a reason?

Why not tell me why a 14 club league in which six of the clubs are big enough to attract very big crowds in RL terms, in which twelve of of the clubs have heavy duty multi-millionaire backers, and which is backed by a very very big TV contract is somehow "at the crossroads".

This is just another slogan as is "warning signs".

The Superleague is not heading anywhere other than in 2015 when they will restructure for another three years. As it stands and all being well we will have at least 12 clubs with the money to ensure clubs are on a financial even keel so that they can again deliver the SKY contract.


And out of the 14 clubs 4 have had serious money issues (Bradford, London, Wakefield and Salford) in the past 3 years. Another Crusaders in their original setup disappeared owing money left right and centre. Cas, Hull KR are struggling and word has it that at Widnes the money man is not going to keep throwing cash away if the support is not there that he wants. Hardly a strong vibrant situation. And whats the next decision to save money?

You are correct that SL will head in to 2015 with likely little change. But then what? Sky and News Limited have taken a recent battering. Its quite possible Sky offer less than last time. With the world finances in a mess its possibly that inflation hurts the game even more. The problem with RL as has been the case since 1895 is that very little has been done to provide the right management and structures for the future. Rugby League is and will always be a minority sport because often it shoots itself in the foot with short term thinking. Expansion dreams like Crusaders, Paris and Gateshead based on dreams and poor management have never worked. But ones that have been based on reality and working with grassroots have produced much better results- see Hemel Hempstead for example. The future of our game in 5-10 years is a worry as most clubs have no real plans or even thought about it. You are correct clubs do need to live right now but the future and what you aim to do to improve yourself is also needed.

#187 Padge

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:02 PM

Transport links to York are excellent. Right on the East Coast Main Line, and on the cross country route too, and if say you were travelling from Wigan, once you hit the M61 at Westhoughton it's motorway most of the way and dual carriageway the rest of the way. I can be in York from here in 30 minutes.
Anyone from Wigan describing transport links anywhere else as poor should visit an optician. Wigan is a bye-word for traffic problems and Wigans' ground seems to have been situated with causing traffic chaos in mind. The last twice I watched RL in Wigan, I either left my car at Hindley and got the train, or parked on Darlington Street and walked!

You could be in York in 30 minutes, but you would be going to Featherstone though wouldn't you, and others around you would be going to Cas, or Wakey, or Leeds or Bradford or Huddersfield.

York may be on the East Coast Mainline, but what are the next large urban populations either side on that line.

You confuse Wigan town centre with links to the town.

Edited by Padge, 29 January 2013 - 09:05 PM.


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#188 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:03 PM

The problem with RL as has been the case since 1895 is that very little has been done to provide the right management and structures for the future. Rugby League is and will always be a minority sport because often it shoots itself in the foot with short term thinking.


You do not get it.

If Rugby League has taken all the wrong decisions for the wrong reasons over the years then YOU tell us what the right decisions should have been?????

If the management was wrong what should the right management have been??

If the structures were wrong what would the right structures have been??

If short term thinking is wrong what should the long term thinking have been??

All your doing is sloganising for the third time.

#189 keighley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:10 PM

Read this. Here is the enthusiastic support for a team in York, and the attendances in a Championship winning season gives you an idea of just how reaaly mad keen they are on the game (not)

http://www.yorkpress.../9676802.print/


You do know they finished rock bottom last in the championship with a lousy team. There is no doubt that RL in York is struggling. I would hazard a guess that a top four team in the CC would see attendances rise to the 1500 to 2000 mark. A top SL team would do much better. Whether or not it would ever be enough for a SL team to survive or not, no one will ever know unless it happens. I am not and never have suggested that SL was imminent any time soon. I just think, despite that doom and gloom article which is true enough, that the city is a potential SL city, just as much as Toulouse if the financing were available.

The fact remains that the City is big enough. As the stockbrokers say " Past returns are no guarantee of future performance ".

#190 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:14 PM

I believe Halifax has produced many many top pro players also and has a very good thriving junior set up to this day.


For goodness sake.

Wigan have produced 25 of today's top professionals.

Halifax have produced four and three play at Huddersfield.

#191 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

Transport links to York are excellent.


They're bl**dy fantastic in Crewe. Put Crewe in Superleague :rolleyes:

#192 M j M

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

i don't see hetherington has a valid criticism. He hardly solved the problem of having to try to develop professional RL in a large conurbation with two big soccer clubs when he was at Sheffield. He bailed out?

Sorry but I have to pull you up on this: in what way did Hetherington "bail out" of Sheffield??? He sold the club he had personally built up from absolutely nothing for a tidy sum; he didn't leave them broken and bankrupt like the club(s) to which he alludes (there is little doubt it is a dig aimed at the previous Bradford administration, for whom he proved their nemesis). He never let Sheffield become seriously burdened by debt despite having no rich backer. His departure from the Eagles led to the best of days and the worst of days but when he was in charge it was probably the tightest-run club in the sport, a trait he has carried over to Leeds.

So he has plenty of experience to talk about how clubs without access to deep pockets can sustain themselves; in fact his experience as a player, a coach, a Challenge-Cup winning club founder and as an administrator at the smallest of clubs and the largest are totally unique.

#193 keighley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:16 PM

And their average attendances last year dropped by a 1,000 a week. why won't you accept that York is NOT a RL City'



Do you know that Wigan in the 2nd Division averaged arounf 4,000 and they are one of the giants of the game. Everything is relative to time and circumstance. Why is it not ccepted that London is not a RL city or manchester or Hudderfield. They were down to around a 1000 inDiv 2 at Fartown or Wakefield or Hull HR in the same division. York is a potential area for serious RL growth up to and including SL.

Keighley got their gates up to 4 to 5000 and the town is only a quarter the size of York.

#194 keighley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:18 PM

For goodness sake.

Wigan have produced 25 of today's top professionals.

Halifax have produced four and three play at Huddersfield.


So that makes them i/6 as successful as Wigan on a quarter of the budget. Not too bad.

#195 keighley

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

They're bl**dy fantastic in Crewe. Put Crewe in Superleague :rolleyes:


Your mate Padge was the one banging on about transport links.

#196 Padge

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:21 PM

I don't haver a map with me but arn't York quite near the A! and on a main line rail route with trains to Leeds a regular occurence. They certainly attract hundreds of thousands of tourists who have no trouble getting there.

How big do you want the city to be . 200, 000 is a decent size.


You don't have a map??? You are on a computer, you have Google Maps etc. at your finger tips.

Like I just replied to Trojan.

These links, what are the nearest population centres on them. Darlington way to the North and Castelford/Fev/Wakefield to the South. So nobody travelling North to go to York then, they are all busy filling the 'Calder' stadia to the rafters. As an RL fan in Darlington, surely Leeds or Hull are more interesting attractions.

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#197 Padge

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:28 PM

Do you know that Wigan in the 2nd Division averaged arounf 4,000 and they are one of the giants of the game. Everything is relative to time and circumstance. Why is it not ccepted that London is not a RL city or manchester or Hudderfield. They were down to around a 1000 inDiv 2 at Fartown or Wakefield or Hull HR in the same division. York is a potential area for serious RL growth up to and including SL.

Keighley got their gates up to 4 to 5000 and the town is only a quarter the size of York.

Wigans crowds in the second division were 4693 a small increase on their previous season and about 9th best in the entire league. The first division average was 5,110 and the 2nd division average was 2,005.

Stop trying to throw red herrings in, all clubs had low averages compared to today.

Edited by Padge, 29 January 2013 - 09:29 PM.


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#198 Padge

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

Your mate Padge was the one banging on about transport links.

I was on about transport links to nearby large population densities, York has good links to nowhere it is likely to get fans from.

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#199 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:33 PM

I would hazard a guess that a top four team in the CC would see attendances rise to the 1500 to 2000 mark.

A top SL team would do much better. Whether or not it would ever be enough for a SL team to survive or not, no one will ever know unless it happens.


It happened at Widnes - 3,500 went on to become an SL loss making 6,000

It happened at leigh - 3,000 went on to become an SL loss making 4,800

It happened in cas - 5,000 went on to become an SL loss making 7,000

it happened at HKR - 3,500 went on to become an SL loss making 7,500

it happened at Workington 3.700 stagnated in SL and stayed at a loss making 3,700

It happened at Huddersfield 2,600 went on to be an SL loss making 7,800

it happened in Wakefield 2,500 went on to become an SL loss making 6.000

It happened at Salford 2,300 went on to become a loss making 5,800

It happened at Oldham 3,900 ended up at 3,600 in Superleague

It happened at Halifax 5,600 ended up at 2,900 in Superleague.

It would have happened at keighley, Dewsbury, Hunslet, and it is yet to happen at featherstone that none of them would have/will produce 10,000 self sustaining crowds.

What is it they say "statistics, statistics and the damn truth"

#200 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 09:34 PM

So that makes them i/6 as successful as Wigan on a quarter of the budget. Not too bad.


It doesn't make them successful at all as what you miss is that these lads don't come from Halifax RLFC they come from Halifax Junior ARL.