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#241 The Parksider

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:20 PM

1. There is not even one junior team in Harrogate and there is no stadium.

2. Now have you finished taking the p#ss?


1. You seem to know be grasping the idea that for a real Superleague club you need a big squad of quality professional players and a large amount of paying spectators. Some clubs just don't come up to that mark.

2. I have now you may be starting to get it. Any relapse into fantasy may trigger a relapse into sarcasm.

#242 keighley

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 06:14 PM

1. You seem to know be grasping the idea that for a real Superleague club you need a big squad of quality professional players and a large amount of paying spectators. Some clubs just don't come up to that mark.

2. I have now you may be starting to get it. Any relapse into fantasy may trigger a relapse into sarcasm.


The point is, and I hope you are starting to get it, that these things can be obtained given the right circumstances as at Perpignan or Widnes or Hull KR. Because a club dosn't come up to the mark presently does not mean that there is not potential, which is all I was saying from post 1.

#243 longboard

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:03 PM

Perhaps there is a case for a potential thread. :) ;)

#244 Griff

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:50 AM

The population of Harrogate is around 60,000, similar to that of Keighley, considered by you to be too small for SL. There is not even one junior team in Harrogate and there is no stadium.


Knaresborough's only a cockstride away, though.
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#245 The Parksider

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:51 AM

The point is, and I hope you are starting to get it, that these things can be obtained given the right circumstances as at Perpignan or Widnes or Hull KR. Because a club dosn't come up to the mark presently does not mean that there is not potential, which is all I was saying from post 1.


You just take it too far, big established clubs with a big name and a record of success and heavy investment can't make it in SL as self sustaining clubs.

The example of Huddersfield under the Ken Davey years is an excellent on. Even after several years of all the money they want they do not produce the players or attract the fans in enough number.

So no York don't have potential and yes looking back over a relevant reference period does show you how hard it would be for small clubs to be SL clubs, given how hard it's been for Fartown who have so much going for them..

And no HKR who don' have the money to match other clubs on the pitch and Widnes who don't produce the players, and both don't get 10K crowds are well short of being self sustaining SL club. Your examples are nonsense.

The game needs every resource it can get pumping into 14 clubs and that's it. If that means the rest go but it's the best thing for the game it'll do for me.

I'll even pay for you to have a Bulls season ticket.

#246 Northern Sol

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:56 PM

I lived and worked in Harrogate and the demographics of the town are definitely not the demographics of RL. Just why they have abandoned RU as well is indeed a mystery.


I was brought up there. It's not so much to with being "posh" but the fact that most people who live in Harrogate weren't born there. And if they were then probably their parents weren't. Hence it has never really had a sporting culture as people tend to support the teams from where they came from.

Most "real" Harrogate folk tend to gravitate towards Leeds based teams, most notably United but to some extent Rhinos and Carnegie. I can't see a York based side ever being popular in Harrogate as people tend to commute to Leeds and go clubbing / do their shopping there; they don't do the same with York.

#247 keighley

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:37 PM

I was brought up there. It's not so much to with being "posh" but the fact that most people who live in Harrogate weren't born there. And if they were then probably their parents weren't. Hence it has never really had a sporting culture as people tend to support the teams from where they came from.

Most "real" Harrogate folk tend to gravitate towards Leeds based teams, most notably United but to some extent Rhinos and Carnegie. I can't see a York based side ever being popular in Harrogate as people tend to commute to Leeds and go clubbing / do their shopping there; they don't do the same with York.


I never suggested that at all. In fact, I never brought Harrogate into the conversation at all. I think York, all by itself at 200,000, is big enough to support a SL club ( potentially in the future) not next week.

#248 keighley

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 08:12 PM

You just take it too far, big established clubs with a big name and a record of success and heavy investment can't make it in SL as self sustaining clubs.

The example of Huddersfield under the Ken Davey years is an excellent on. Even after several years of all the money they want they do not produce the players or attract the fans in enough number.

So no York don't have potential and yes looking back over a relevant reference period does show you how hard it would be for small clubs to be SL clubs, given how hard it's been for Fartown who have so much going for them..

And no HKR who don' have the money to match other clubs on the pitch and Widnes who don't produce the players, and both don't get 10K crowds are well short of being self sustaining SL club. Your examples are nonsense.

The game needs every resource it can get pumping into 14 clubs and that's it. If that means the rest go but it's the best thing for the game it'll do for me.

I'll even pay for you to have a Bulls season ticket.


So why were any of these clubs given A SL licence. According to your point of view it's a licence to fail.

If the game is to stick at 14 top clubs and that's it and the devil take the hindmost and the rest can go to the wall, then that's nothing but a defeatist attitude.

I think the game should be looking to expand from amateurs all the way to SL. If the SL is still limited to 14 or 12 or 10 clubs in 20 years time, it will have been a serial failure. If it is still stuck with most of it;s teams in the current narrowly defined geographical straight jacket, it will have become a failure.

I have seen you decry York, Sheffield, Oldham and Doncaster, all decent sized or even big cities, on the periphery of the SL archepelago, as no go areas for SL expansion. I am seeing you now in this thread saying " the game needs every resource it can get pumping into 14 clubs AND THAT'S IT ". So much for your ballyhooed support for a Welsh SL club then.

I guess if the new Coventry team slated for next season's CC1, situated in a decent sized rugby mad city, were to ever aspire to SL, it too would be told that there is no money, no fans, no potential, no players etc etc ad nauseam and told to get lost because " The game needs every resource it can get pumping into 14 clubs AND THAT'S IT".

I just don't share your elitist, defeatist, nihilist views. I think the future direction should be a bigger spread for the game with a bigger SL and the wealth should be spread around. I think expansion, not ring fencing, should be the policy. The SL has increased crowds and, despite the recent hiccups, seems to be emerging even stronger for the struggle. I think the pathway to SL should be open to all via p and r or just a plain and simple decision to increase the number of teams in the top flight.

I think the thrust of the game should be expansionary and the league should endeavour to engage with TV companies to move in that direction. You say it can't be done. I say, let's try. I don't say this can be done next season or even ever but the future must by one of expansion, if not there is no future. If a York or a Doncaster or a Sheffield are ever able to grow to the point where they can realistically apply for or get promoted to SL then they should be admitted without a backward glance, as well as Halifax or Fev or Leigh.

By the way, you can keep the money for the Bradford Bulls season ticket, you can buy me one for the Cougars and hope that they survive and that Leeds A, oops I meant Hunslet, don't get them relegated to CC1.





#249 The Parksider

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:10 PM

1. If the game is to stick at 14 top clubs that's nothing but a defeatist attitude.

2. I think the game should be looking to expand amateurs all the way to SL

3. I have seen you decry York, Sheffield, Oldham and Doncaster, I guess if the new Coventry team slated for next season's CC1, situated in a decent sized rugby mad city, were to ever aspire to SL, it too would be told that there is no money, no fans, no potential, no players etc etc a

4. I think the wealth should be spread around. I think expansion, not ring fencing, should be the policy.

5. I think the thrust of the game should be expansionary and the league should endeavour to engage with TV companies to move in that direction.

6. If a York or a Doncaster or a Sheffield are ever able to grow to the point where they can realistically apply for or get promoted to SL


1. If every fan, sponsor and TV pound was in Superleague we'f have profitable clubs able to grow the sport.

2. SL clubs should have all the resources so they can expand the amateur game. The bit in the middle is dragging progress down.

3. Laughable. Doncaster tried to get RL going big style 60 years ago and have gone nowhere in that time and you talk about Coventry for Superleague.

4. This is a joke isn't it? take money off the clubs best placed to be SL clubs who can expand the game and give it to small clubs who will do what with it? Waste it,

5. What does that mean? We're not back to ask the TV companies for money and they will say "OK here you are" back to the silly assumption Mr. Wood does not try every angle to get every penny?

6. why do you post this stuff? York have gone nowhere in over 150 years, Donny nowhere in 60 years, Sheffield nowhere in 25 years.

One league of 14 clubs in the right places, sat on regions, given all the money possible to develop the game in their area and targeting of extra resources where needed and less where not needed. 14 rich men working together to create a solid superleague from top to bottom.

We agreed on an earlier thread no Superleague = no Rugby League to talk about.

It's an easy conclusion to make that we need to engineer every penny into Superleague clubs to make them profitable so they can grow.

You defy all logic talking about clubs who have no record of growth one day being "ready for SL"........

All for the good of the game.

#250 keighley

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:05 PM

1. If every fan, sponsor and TV pound was in Superleague we'f have profitable clubs able to grow the sport.
To grow it where, bigger if possible where it already is. The sport is too small and isolated. It needs expansion both numerically and geographically.
.
2. SL clubs should have all the resources so they can expand the amateur game. The bit in the middle is dragging progress down.

You hope. The recent Leeds initiative in this area is the very first and we'll see how much actual cash they devote to it. Pro and semi pro clubs don't expand the amatueur game. They feed off of it.

3. Laughable. Doncaster tried to get RL going big style 60 years ago and have gone nowhere in that time and you talk about Coventry for Superleague.

London and Catalans both started from next to nothing and are both in SL, but it can't be done anywhere else. They first started in London in the 1930s

4. This is a joke isn't it? take money off the clubs best placed to be SL clubs who can expand the game and give it to small clubs who will do what with it? Waste it,

Expand the game to where. That is what I am suggesting and you are decrying

5. What does that mean? We're not back to ask the TV companies for money and they will say "OK here you are" back to the silly assumption Mr. Wood does not try every angle to get every penny?

Nothing ventured, nothing gained. The RFL need to sell the benefits of an expanded game to Sky, ESPN and whomever. You do not know what Mr Wood asks for. I rather suspect that he asks for a continuation of the status quo rather then any attempt to get a committment to a bigger payday if the SL expands. I just love it when you try to belittle people's ideas with words like "silly" and "fantasy" and "impossible" purely because you don't agree with them.

6. why do you post this stuff? York have gone nowhere in over 150 years, Donny nowhere in 60 years, Sheffield nowhere in 25 years.

London went nowhere in 30 years. Catalans went nowhere in 80 years. Paris went nowhere in 2 years. Various Welsh experiments went nowhere in 100 years. Some suceed,some don't. There is no template that says previous failure to thrive is a recipe for future expectations. Situations and opportunities are constantly changing. One day you are up, one day you are not. look at the roller coaster RL has been on in Bradford since 1895. I dare say if we were having this discusssion in 1905 or 1963, you would be posting about the impossibility of success for RL< in Bradford also.

One league of 14 clubs in the right places, sat on regions, given all the money possible to develop the game in their area and targeting of extra resources where needed and less where not needed. 14 rich men working together to create a solid superleague from top to bottom.

Morrisons was once a one man shop. It didn't sit on it's profits and stay at that location. It expanded and took risks and ended up what it is today. SL needs to do the same thing. Once a club is ready, on the field, in the stadium and at the Bank it should be given a place in SL.

Beta was a better video tape system that VHS but it failed to capture it's market, stagnated in in it's own little niche and lost the war. Union, an inferior product. is there trying to corner the market and if we let them, it will be no consolation that we have the better product. They will obliterate RL
.
We agreed on an earlier thread no Superleague = no Rugby League to talk about.

It's an easy conclusion to make that we need to engineer every penny into Superleague clubs to make them profitable so they can grow.

I have no argument there. SL clubs need to be profitable, as do CC clubs, and the money is overwhelmingly already diverted to that end with mixed results. That is not to say that further revenue should not be pursued to enable extra teams to join the club. Don't forget much of the necessary revenue will be engineered by the clubs themselves as at Fev and Halifax, Leigh and Salford.

You defy all logic talking about clubs who have no record of growth one day being "ready for SL"....

Union clubs, Saracens, Wasps, London Irish, Harelquins and the like were one man and a dog operations for 100 years. They had no record of growth. Many of them didn't even have stadia. The situation changed, RU went professional and these clubs with no record at all of growth became very big business indeed. It's you, I am afraid, who are defying logic. . There has never been so much money in RL as at present. There has never been such demand for coverage of the game from TV outlets. There has never been the quality of administration and management ability in the game as there is today and I include many fo the CC clubs in that statement.. As stated already London and Catalan had no record of growth and hey presto......

All for the good of the game.

Indeed, but we have conflicting thoughts on how to achieve this.



#251 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 10:57 PM

I never suggested that at all. In fact, I never brought Harrogate into the conversation at all. I think York, all by itself at 200,000, is big enough to support a SL club ( potentially in the future) not next week.


That I would agree with.

I just don't think that Harrogate should be brought into the argument. It is closer to Leeds (Headingley especially) than to York.

Edited by Northern Sol, 02 February 2013 - 11:01 PM.


#252 Trojan

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 12:09 AM

That I would agree with.

I just don't think that Harrogate should be brought into the argument. It is closer to Leeds (Headingley especially) than to York.

I always get the impression that Harrogate is a home counties town transplanted to to the edge of the Dales. I recall playing Union against them in the sixites - they were very posh. "I say 'Gate play up - every man must tackle chaps" etc.

"This is a very wealthy country, money is no object" D. Cameron February 2014


#253 Northern Sol

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:10 AM

It is becoming that way. It has always been fairly posh but there were rough edges around it when I was a kid but it is gradually been transformed into a Guildford of the north.

#254 Tre Cool

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:15 AM

York has the most potential of any current northern champs side imo. Big population, RL respected part of the culture, supportive media, good amateur sides.

#255 The Parksider

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 08:56 AM


The RFL need to sell the benefits of an expanded game to Sky, ESPN and whomever. You do not know what Mr Wood asks for. I rather suspect that he asks for a continuation of the status quo rather then any attempt to get a committment to a bigger payday if the SL expands.


Really?

So Superleague could expand to 16 clubs but Mr. Wood blocks it by not discussing it with SKY.

If only SKY would look at the benefits. However you don't say what they are.

I assume the 15th and 16th clubs will be York and Doncaster?

Places where only the odd professional player comes from once a flood. Places where paying support is low.

So go on indulge me, indulge Mr. Wood tell me how Superleague will be all the better for this, outline the benefits, and outline how York and Doncaster will go on from strength to strength.

Come on time for you to back up what you say with some good old fashioned reason and logic.

#256 The Parksider

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 09:11 AM

Morrisons was once a one man shop. It didn't sit on it's profits and stay at that location. It expanded and took risks and ended up what it is today. SL needs to do the same thing. Once a club is ready, on the field, in the stadium and at the Bank it should be given a place in SL.


Using logic and reason please explain how the grocery market of several decades ago compares to the market for Rugby League?

Please set out the similarities especially market size and the availability of qualified staff.

Then please explain how CC clubs (like Doncaster and York) can be "ready" "on the field" and "in the bank". when they don't generate more than a few hundred grand of which all goes on expenses to survive, and when they don't produce pro players and the odd one that does come up in their area is off to Superleague.

Use some logic and reason please.

Edited by The Parksider, 03 February 2013 - 10:38 AM.


#257 The Parksider

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:38 AM


London went nowhere in 30 years. Catalans went nowhere in 80 years. There is no template that says previous failure to thrive is a recipe for future expectations.


Now let's deal with this.

Could you compare and contrast the size of the populations/amateur game London and Catalans have at their disposal with that of York and Doncaster please.

Both Catalans and London (as Quins) started out in 2006 aiming to develop their own players and to draw their own self sustsaining crowds. Superleague money at £1,200,000 per annum has allowed them financial resources to invest in growth.

How well have they done to date? And how well will York and Doncaster go in SL in comparison??

use some reason and logic please, no slogans.

#258 stewpot01

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 10:58 AM

So why were any of these clubs given A SL licence. According to your point of view it's a licence to fail.

If the game is to stick at 14 top clubs and that's it and the devil take the hindmost and the rest can go to the wall, then that's nothing but a defeatist attitude.

I think the game should be looking to expand from amateurs all the way to SL. If the SL is still limited to 14 or 12 or 10 clubs in 20 years time, it will have been a serial failure. If it is still stuck with most of it;s teams in the current narrowly defined geographical straight jacket, it will have become a failure.

I have seen you decry York, Sheffield, Oldham and Doncaster, all decent sized or even big cities, on the periphery of the SL archepelago, as no go areas for SL expansion. I am seeing you now in this thread saying " the game needs every resource it can get pumping into 14 clubs AND THAT'S IT ". So much for your ballyhooed support for a Welsh SL club then.

I guess if the new Coventry team slated for next season's CC1, situated in a decent sized rugby mad city, were to ever aspire to SL, it too would be told that there is no money, no fans, no potential, no players etc etc ad nauseam and told to get lost because " The game needs every resource it can get pumping into 14 clubs AND THAT'S IT".

I just don't share your elitist, defeatist, nihilist views. I think the future direction should be a bigger spread for the game with a bigger SL and the wealth should be spread around. I think expansion, not ring fencing, should be the policy. The SL has increased crowds and, despite the recent hiccups, seems to be emerging even stronger for the struggle. I think the pathway to SL should be open to all via p and r or just a plain and simple decision to increase the number of teams in the top flight.

I think the thrust of the game should be expansionary and the league should endeavour to engage with TV companies to move in that direction. You say it can't be done. I say, let's try. I don't say this can be done next season or even ever but the future must by one of expansion, if not there is no future. If a York or a Doncaster or a Sheffield are ever able to grow to the point where they can realistically apply for or get promoted to SL then they should be admitted without a backward glance, as well as Halifax or Fev or Leigh.

By the way, you can keep the money for the Bradford Bulls season ticket, you can buy me one for the Cougars and hope that they survive and that Leeds A, oops I meant Hunslet, don't get them relegated to CC1.


Sod it. Why don't we just go back to one division then maybe all this bickering can stop ;)

#259 Bulliac

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:25 AM

Sod it. Why don't we just go back to one division then maybe all this bickering can stop ;)

:lol:
No team is an island.........................................

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#260 The Parksider

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Posted 03 February 2013 - 11:26 AM

Sod it. Why don't we just go back to one division then maybe all this bickering can stop ;)


Because we'll lose the SKY contract for an Elite league, and the game will descend into a local semi pro oddity, that will please old men like me and keighley. Once were gone though :lol:




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