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#281 The Parksider

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 06:59 PM

I take it.

On the assumption that all other factors remain the same (wage levels, Sky money, etc etc) obviously borrowing is likely to rise.


As your monetary grasp of the game is better than mine I am pleased to be in receipt of such a definitive view.

The bigger SL becomes the thinner the resources spread.

#282 keighley

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:08 PM

As your monetary grasp of the game is better than mine I am pleased to be in receipt of such a definitive view.

The bigger SL becomes the thinner the resources spread.


Unless the resources are increased.

#283 The Parksider

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 07:37 PM

Unless the resources are increased.


Indeed and as Paul Daniels said "just like that".

#284 dhw

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:07 PM

Which very big rival hemms in Wigan?


Leigh

#285 Dennis Bloodnock

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:08 PM

Indeed and as Paul Daniels said "just like that".


I think you are wrong again Parksider,it was the late great Tommy Cooper who said "just like that"
Paul Daniels was all for P&R ,sixteen teams and Superleague for Blackpool,

Edited by Dennis Bloodnock, 05 February 2013 - 11:09 PM.

I can speak Esperanto like a native.

#286 Northern Sol

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 11:22 PM

Indeed and as Paul Daniels said "just like that".


You are the guy who thinks that London should have millions pumped in by the RFL but have no explanation for where the money would come from...

Isn't this quip just a little but ironic?

#287 stewpot01

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 05:23 AM

Indeed and as Paul Daniels said "just like that".


Wrong. His catchphrase was "You're going to like this - not a lot"

Just like this thread which is now becoming bori...................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

#288 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:06 AM

I think you are wrong again Parksider,it was the late great Tommy Cooper who said "just like that"
Paul Daniels was all for P&R ,sixteen teams and Superleague for Blackpool,


Thank you for the correction :D

#289 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 06:08 AM

Wrong. His catchphrase was "You're going to like this - not a lot"

Just like this thread which is now becoming bori...................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!


Give me the address you are at now and tell me who is forcing you to sit at your computer and follow this particular thread and I'll get a rescue team up to come and release you, however I need to know if they are armed for the safety of my team.

#290 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 07:23 AM

If Superleague were extended by two championship clubs given that both would struggle for players and fans would the debt go up or down?

Is it a good idea on a financial basis?


If a Championship club like Fax or Fev was swapped for London, would the debt go up or down?

Is it a good idea on a finacial basis?


I want London in SL and would rather see some concessions made regarding Sky money to help them. But I dont want them in or anybody in SL at any cost. And its not a question of how much money SL in total has or hasnt it how that money is used by clubs.

Sadly virtually all clubs over the years have wasted it instead of using it wisely. The term "live for now for tomorrow we die" is one that could easily be the games motto. Very little has been invested in the future despite the hundreds of millions maybe billions that SL clubs have collectively received over the years

#291 Griff

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

Indeed and as Paul Daniels said "just like that".


Presumably if Sky wanted a bigger league they'd be prepared to pay for it.

But, as Sky gravitate towards the top clubs, I suspect they'd like the opposite.

Maybe they'd be prepared to pay for a reduction !! B)
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#292 Griff

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:35 AM

If a Championship club like Fax or Fev was swapped for London, would the debt go up or down?


Fax currently make a profit but they have historic debt.

Fev are the opposite. They make a loss but have historic assets which they are frittering away.
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#293 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:31 AM

Fax currently make a profit but they have historic debt.


What Historic debt do you mean? The current club has NO debts as such. The article from 2010 confirms this http://halifaxrlfc.c...le.php?id=20637 To quote what still current director Ian Croad said "We’re debt free and we may make a small profit this year, which is a big achievement in the present climate....and the business is thriving." And Fax have made small profits without support from directors the past 3 years/seasons.

#294 Griff

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:25 PM

What Historic debt do you mean? The current club has NO debts as such. The article from 2010 confirms this http://halifaxrlfc.c...le.php?id=20637 To quote what still current director Ian Croad said "We’re debt free and we may make a small profit this year, which is a big achievement in the present climate....and the business is thriving." And Fax have made small profits without support from directors the past 3 years/seasons.


Not what their November 2011 accounts show.......

Tangible Fixed Assets £11317

Current Assets

Debtors £16884
Cash £21353

Current Liabilities £269786 which is £220232 more than their total assets

Signed by M A Steele on 8th August 2012


But - yes - they're currently making profits and chipping away at that historic debt.
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#295 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

If a Championship club like Fax or Fev was swapped for London, would the debt go up or down?

Is it a good idea on a financial basis?

I want London in SL and would rather see some concessions made regarding Sky money to help them. But I dont want them in or anybody in SL at any cost. And its not a question of how much money SL in total has or hasn't it how that money is used by clubs.

Sadly virtually all clubs over the years have wasted it instead of using it wisely. The term "live for now for tomorrow we die" is one that could easily be the games motto. Very little has been invested in the future despite the hundreds of millions maybe billions that SL clubs have collectively received over the years


The core expense in Superleague is a £1.65M wage bill. True you don't have to pay that, but if you don't the chances are you'll lose matches, and crowds (that may already be insufficient to fund a competitive break even club) may drop.

Clubs whose crowd income doesn't meet expenditure include Cas, HKR, Widnes, Salford, London, Huddersfield.

Clubs may break even or make a profit in the Championship but that's with a primary cost of a £300K wage bill. What people often make the mistake of believing is that when you are promoted you get £1,000,000 from SKY and bigger crowds so that from that you can fund full salary cap.

As you know SL clubs have to fund a full time business support team, and need to find the money for that. I can't really estimate the cost of that too well (Can you Griff) as i have seen little in the way of figures, but when SL clubs turn over £4-£6M and CC clubs only around £1M then it's clear operating full time has massive extra costs beyond the £1.2M you get from SKY extra.

Mr. Hudgell is good enough to tell us he was losing £500K a year on 8,000 crowds and has set a player budget this year of £1,100,000. To balance the books and stem the losses.

So on those figures, even if Halifax or Fev came back to Superleague on their best top crowds (4.700 Fev, 5,600 Halifax) they would not be able to compete without the prospect of running up a debt to a director.

But as I have said many times over recent months Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Fev, Cas, Wakey, London, Salford, HKR, Fartown etc are all much if a muchness.

What qualifies ANY of that lot to play with the big boys is access to a rich mans "directors loans" necessary to be able to compete.

Without Ken Davey what would the score have been Friday at Saints?? Indeed would Fartown have even been in SL.

And so I think this is what the mighty Griff will confirm, that Halifax may make a modest profit year on year but they may owe directors a lot of money from the past. You may be making the assumption they will write it off (as Mr. Wilkinson and Mr. Clauge did for Mr. Koukash) and you may be right.

But adding Fev and Fax to Superleague is only going to add at least half a million a year losses for each of their clubs.

That isn't to say they should not be in, of course they should, especially if Mr, Nahaboo and Mr. Abbot offer personal investment beyond what the likes of Cas and HKR can manage.

Finally and sadly I disagree with your statement "clubs over the years have wasted the hundreds of millions SL clubs have collectively received" and that they have not "used it wisely"

I'm sorry but I am adamant IMHO that when the SKY subsidy doesn't pay the player wage bill in full and you have significant marketing and junior development to set up and a large staff to run it, the SKY money is insufficient to leave anything over for "Investment".

Let's be fair. Mr. Hudgell is putting a lot of money into facilities to expand crowds and has put a lot into the wage bill to be competetive to attract fans and despite the SKY money he's still losing money such that he has to slash team spending.

SKY never gave us enough money to invest, they didn't give the game enough money to properly run professionally.

#296 The Parksider

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:54 PM

Presumably if Sky wanted a bigger league they'd be prepared to pay for it.

But, as Sky gravitate towards the top clubs, I suspect they'd like the opposite.

Maybe they'd be prepared to pay for a reduction !! B)


Sorry to post over you.

Yes indeed it seems SKY have (whether intentional or not) only been prepared to pay Superleague enough so there'll be enough top class matches to show on the TV schedule.

If a few bottom clubs are collapsing so what?.

And indeed if the RFL/SLE go to SKY and say "can you pay us more to stem our losses in our 14 club SL" they may say go hang, why not go back to 12?

I can't remember (but can anyone with a better grasp of history recall) if when SL went to14 clubs in 2009 SKY provided any money for that or did the SL clubs accept less from the same pot?

#297 keighley

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 02:54 PM

Indeed and as Paul Daniels said "just like that".


I thought it was Ernie Wise who said that.

#298 Griff

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:15 PM

I thought it was Ernie Wise who said that.


Eric Morecambe used to say "get out of that, then".
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#299 Griff

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:31 PM

As you know SL clubs have to fund a full time business support team, and need to find the money for that. I can't really estimate the cost of that too well (Can you Griff) as i have seen little in the way of figures, but when SL clubs turn over £4-£6M and CC clubs only around £1M then it's clear operating full time has massive extra costs beyond the £1.2M you get from SKY extra.


No, I wouldn't like to - it's going to vary. Most of the leading Championship clubs already have some of these posts covered. It'd be inadequate for $uperleague in all probability but part of the cost is already in there.


And so I think this is what the mighty Griff will confirm, that Halifax may make a modest profit year on year but they may owe directors a lot of money from the past. You may be making the assumption they will write it off (as Mr. Wilkinson and Mr. Clauge did for Mr. Koukash) and you may be right..


Halifax were only formed in 2007 but by 30th November 2010, they had lost £367,760 - no idea how but that's what the accounts say. They reduced that loss with their 2011 profit of £26902 to £340,858. The difference between that figure and the £220,232 posted above is the £120,626 that they issued as share capital.

Edited by Griff, 06 February 2013 - 03:32 PM.

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