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#21 hindle xiii

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:41 AM

Bradford - obviously previously a shambles. Too early to judge new club owners, but judging by the constant moans coming out of Bradford, suspect the new owners too lack what it takes to run a successful SL club.

What "constant moans"?

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#22 sweaty craiq

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:43 AM

The ground saga has been about as realistic as Wakey's plans under Ted Richardson. They have the site, the planning permission, but can't fund it. What sort of a plan is that? At least Ted could blame an inability to find a site and get planning permission as the problem. Wakey's new owners won't have that excuse though.

A club like Cas need to be run spot on. They are always going to need to punch above their weight with Leeds & Wakey on their doorstep, so the decision to appoint Ian Millward as coach is an example of a poor decision that a club like Cas can't afford to make. The bigger clubs can afford an error like that every now and then, but clubs like Cas and the other bottom clubs, can't afford to make those sort of mistakes.


I understand Basil was appointed to stop the rot, make the hard calls and work on a very low budget. Hence the bargain basement players like Nash, Ellis who came in. Will be interesting to see how his team go this season, again a low budget but his players.

#23 The Parksider

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:58 AM

The difference is that at a club like HKR they are putting money in to plug the gaps simply to keep operating at their current level. At a club like Warrington, for example, they are pretty much self-sustaining at an operating cost level and Moran's money pays for additional value adding items like improved facilities and development.

One is putting money in to simply stand still, the other is putting money in to enhance the club.

There's a big difference between the two - the first is simply sinking money without any real return, while the second is proper investment which realises genuine tangible benefits both now and longer term.

Throwing money at it is one thing, getting value for that money is quite another altogether. The only way clubs will move forward is by becoming sustainable at an operating profit level thus allowing the 'sugar daddies' to make proper infrastructure investment instead of paying wages. But it's a nettle that clubs don't want to grasp.


I am thankful you have added your knowledge and experience to the thread.

Neil Hudgell on the one hand stands accused of trying to form a Superleague club where there was already one that had the interest of many fans and had the pick of the best players in Hull.

But to be fair he has recognised the solution and work is going ahead at Craven Park to improve facilities and income streams.

That's come at a time when his own investment has run out, and his playing roster has been raided as a result. It remains to be seen if the investments beyond the team he has made can up attendances from 8,000 to 10,000 and improve the take per head.

Mr. S. W. Shark suggests "Neil Hudgell seems to be constantly moaning without offering any solutions, which is typical action from a club owner trying to shift the blame".

Again I think this is unfair as HKR are the ninth best supported club in SL and investment is going in.

Back to your excellent quote "simply sinking money without any real return (against) proper investment which realises genuine tangible benefits".

This is of course spot on, but the question is how can the clubs make operating profits so they can buy grounds, facilities and invest in ways of creating extra income streams?

For some they are already there but for a number of clubs they are heavily in debt standing still, the adjustment to their business plan would have to be radical and the obvious solution is cut player spending, but imagine half a dozen SL clubs cutting to £800K playing budgets to "make a profit" for a couple of years. Where would their income level go if they were being hammered every week by the top eight??

Will the specators still come if the team is heavily cut?

For a business plan to work it surely has to be feasible in the first place and the club surely has to take into account the business opposition it is competing with.

In our game the problem is we don't have enough clubs feasible for Superleague, and no "sensible business plan" based on spend less than you take will change that unless Superleague fundamentally changes radically.

#24 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

What "constant moans"?


Not getting the full Sky TV allocation - they went bust, they need to be punished, take it like a man.

Bradford v Saints clashing with Bradford City - no of course you can't shift your match to clash with the WCC where we want the whole focus on rugby league to be.

#25 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

I understand Basil was appointed to stop the rot, make the hard calls and work on a very low budget. Hence the bargain basement players like Nash, Ellis who came in. Will be interesting to see how his team go this season, again a low budget but his players.


Hope he can do it. The John Kear example is what they need, where he got very average players to play to the best of their ability at Wakey. If you've got sound decisions off the field and a Kear type example on it, then you can move forward as a club. It was Kear's ability that kept Wakey going against a background of incompetence by the previous owners.

#26 Southstander13

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:09 AM

I love press releases, and how they tell you nothing.

what management practices Gary?
what role/responsibility?
who lets SL down and how?


This might help flesh out what he was saying

http://www.yorkshire...eague-1-5359654

#27 hindle xiii

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:11 AM

Not getting the full Sky TV allocation - they went bust, they need to be punished, take it like a man.

Bradford v Saints clashing with Bradford City - no of course you can't shift your match to clash with the WCC where we want the whole focus on rugby league to be.

It wasn't their wrong doings, and they tried and failed. We'll put up with it.

And this freak occurance of City getting to Wembley would hit us badly in the pocket as thousands of fans would want to either go or watch the game on telly. Yes it's not ideal but quite frankly it makes sense. I was all in favour of Saturday, but apparently it seems this would also be detrimental. Still, could do Monday.

Not quite "constant moaning".

On Odsal Top baht 'at.


#28 my missus

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:20 AM

typical, as usual just before the "big" kick off another hatchet job to throw doom and gloom at the super league, there will be more before the season kicks off.

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Why all the fuss
It's only two humans being.


#29 roughyedspud

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:24 AM

the total debt ain't that bad imo

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#30 Amber Avenger

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:35 AM

It wasn't their wrong doings, and they tried and failed. We'll put up with it.

And this freak occurance of City getting to Wembley would hit us badly in the pocket as thousands of fans would want to either go or watch the game on telly. Yes it's not ideal but quite frankly it makes sense. I was all in favour of Saturday, but apparently it seems this would also be detrimental. Still, could do Monday.

Not quite "constant moaning".


Quite - at least one of the moans - the latter - is quite justified (City moved their home match when it clased with Bulls at Wembley IIRC). Still it isn't constant and it seems that the relentless positivity that has been coming out of the club has been ignored by this poster for a moan (rather ironically)
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#31 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:45 AM


Gary Hetherington gives a different view: http://www.yorkshire...eague-1-5359654


#32 marklaspalmas

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:50 AM

Which two clubs are charaitable trusts and are not included? Is warrington one?

If 11 clubs owe 68m, but removing 2 clubs reduces the debt to 3m per club, then 9 clubs owe 27m and two clubs owe 41m between them.

3m per club seems reasonable if the debt can be serviced, but those two clubs sharing 41m are in deep doo-doo (and they are not necessarily Bradford & Salford)

 

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#33 hindle xiii

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:52 AM

Quite - at least one of the moans - the latter - is quite justified (City moved their home match when it clased with Bulls at Wembley IIRC). Still it isn't constant and it seems that the relentless positivity that has been coming out of the club has been ignored by this poster for a moan (rather ironically)

Leeds play their game in hand against Widnes on 17th June, the day after the Exiles. We should do the same... then it'll be a Bulls Saints back to back as we travel to Langtree the weekend before!

(I'm sure there was a fixture quirk in 2005 where Leeds and Leigh played home and away back to back...)

On Odsal Top baht 'at.


#34 hindle xiii

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:54 AM

Which two clubs are charaitable trusts and are not included? Is warrington one?

If 11 clubs owe 68m, but removing 2 clubs reduces the debt to 3m per club, then 9 clubs owe 27m and two clubs owe 41m between them.

3m per club seems reasonable if the debt can be serviced, but those two clubs sharing 41m are in deep doo-doo (and they are not necessarily Bradford & Salford)

Saints with Langtree? Wigan with Tomkins?!

On Odsal Top baht 'at.


#35 my missus

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:56 AM

Gary Hetherington gives a different view: http://www.yorkshire...eague-1-5359654

can't make much sense of that, it looks like someone has cut and pasted all the gloomy paragraphs and just kept repeating them :unsure:

What does it mean
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Why all the fuss
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#36 my missus

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:58 AM

Saints with Langtree? Wigan with Tomkins?!

if clubs have invested in a new ground how is that a debt? and tomkins must be an asset.

What does it mean
This tearjerking scene
Beamed into my home
That it moves me so much
Why all the fuss
It's only two humans being.


#37 Marauder

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:07 AM

As this seems to be only being broadcast in the Yorkshire region it will have little or no effect elsewhere unless the southern media pick up on it big time,if they do then that might cause long term problems in finding that new SL sponsor which is not what the game needs right now.

As a matter of interest does anyone know on here which 2 clubs are in trust ?

The Dragons were running (3 seasons ago) at around Euros 3 Million in debt which seemed to be sustainable at the time so this can be added to the figure.

CM

Could work the other way and some bright spark realising that a cheap sponsorship with International coverage could be had.
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#38 Southstander13

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:16 AM

if clubs have invested in a new ground how is that a debt?


Exactly. Its still a debt, but its a planned one, its managable, and its only like any one of us having a mortgage!

#39 The Parksider

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:21 AM

This might help flesh out what he was saying

“We’re becoming heavily dependent on television revenue and also historically on benevolence, Where you find a problem, it’s generally down to poor management from the top and often the withdrawal of a benefactor.

“I think there is a tendency in all our sports where the management tend to focus on things like buying new players, changing the manager, appeasing the fans and reacting to pressure from the media"

"rather than having a clear focus on growth and creating a surplus which can then be re-invested into the business".


Big help. I can see what he's saying, over spending and over reliance on benefactors fits just about all the problems our clubs have had, so I can see that he's right here. And yes clubs feel the pressure to try to get a decent team on the pitch that can compete and yes they may overspend to do that.

But he doesn't square any circles here. He inherited a club that had a "big audience" (12,500) and a decent "product" (runners up to Wigan premiership and cup finalists 1995). Mr. Caddick built his stand and the facilities that provides the income streams.

He inherited a business that had a good product and had a large market to sell it to.

So he was in an excellent position to make a profit which has now sustained Leeds as the games top club over the last so many years.

But how do Cas, HKR, Salford, London, Widnes, Fev, Halifax, Leigh, Sheffield make a profit if they don't have as good a product to put on the pitch or if they don't have a wide enough market for the game or both??.

He talks about "creating a surplus which can then be re-invested into the business".

Again the question is how do clubs create that surplus?

It won't be by cutting player budgets and letting Leeds, Wigan, Saints & Wire run all over them will it?

#40 sweaty craiq

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:22 AM

We need someone with presence who is able to paint a different picture on this programme




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