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#101 Saintslass

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 08:56 PM

Chris Irvine seems to think we are a bunch of serfs who should doff our caps if the BBC deem us worthy of a half baked investigation slot on a regional programme.

Chris Irvine is a miserable git.

btw, I believe the show is available on IPlayer and was also accessible on a Sky channel for the whole country to watch if it wanted to, but I doubt it did!

#102 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:04 PM

It was a cheap shot on launch day. Totally unnecessary. They couldn't even produce hard figures to back up their 'in excess of £60 million' claim.

Perhaps the BBC thinks it's paying us too much for TV rights. Or maybe they've been left out of the World Cup deal. Or maybe they are trying to get a World Cup deal on the cheap. No idea. But that item was so empty of substance that the whole thing just looks vindictive.

Presumably the clubs accounts are readily available for examination at Companies House website. Surely there's someone at the RFL can either confirm or disprove the figure mentioned as they'll already be in possession of each club's accounts, won't they?

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 28 January 2013 - 09:07 PM.

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#103 The Parksider

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:36 PM

If expenditure year after year exceeds income and the debt keeps getting bigger, eventually catastrophe will ensue. All I am saying is that those clubs in those situations need to reduce their expenditures to the point where the club at least breaks even.


So when Directors put money in they don't want back is that income, or is it debt?

#104 Marauder

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:39 PM

So when Directors put money in they don't want back is that income, or is it debt?

loan
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#105 Saintslass

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:52 PM

Presumably the clubs accounts are readily available for examination at Companies House website. Surely there's someone at the RFL can either confirm or disprove the figure mentioned as they'll already be in possession of each club's accounts, won't they?

Not necessarily. The accounts will be at Companies House, yes, but small companies do not need to publish them (ie make them publically available) in full. That will be why the so-called expert could only estimate and probably only do so with a wild guess.

Edited by Saintslass, 28 January 2013 - 09:54 PM.


#106 Saintslass

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:53 PM

So when Directors put money in they don't want back is that income, or is it debt?

Neither. They just convert them to shares! At least, they do at Saints anyway.

#107 longboard

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 09:54 PM

Well stap me vitals.

Professional sports clubs in debts shocker! :o

Here are some other figures for soccer:-

http://www.mirror.co...-billion-854183

Greater income and larger debts.

#108 M j M

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:18 PM

It was a spectacularly misguided and financially illiterate reading of sets of accounts. Absolutely stunned that it went to the screens without anyone credibly asking the question, "is any of this debt a problem?".

The vast majority of it is owed to directors who are not expecting to see it repaid. That is completely not an issue. The headline figure was and is irrelevant, it's whether any of the clubs with debt need to pay it back or do not have directors who are willing or able to continue covering it. This is broadly the position Salford and Bradford ended up in. It is a much more nuanced thing - generally the clubs with tens of millions of pounds of "debt" are the ones who are ironically more secure as the owners have been happy to plough that money in themselves. The Bulls and Salford have been in trouble over much smaller sums but have had no one left to plug the gap.

Overall I think anyone with a decent understanding of accounts and/or sports finances could rip apart that piece and the so-called expert in a matter of minutes. I'm a little embarrassed for George Riley that he's been exposed to have such a shallow understanding of how sport actually works.

Edited by M j M, 28 January 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#109 trakl

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:41 PM

I hope we put a stop to pinning any blame on poor old George Riley. We don't want him to stop "plugging" the game on the radio in-between his updates on the traffic or the weather - something for which we should be swooning in gratitude - and as the Times' Chris Irvine suggests, any news is good news... and, as a colleague of Stephen Jones', who might be in a better position than he to know just how much of a boost the former's decades-long hateful drivel (without so much as a pipsqueak put up as argument!) has been on the health and welfare of rugby league as a whole..?

#110 Saintslass

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:48 PM

I hope we put a stop to pinning any blame on poor old George Riley.

Hardly 'poor old'! That suntan wasn't obtained in this country, that's for sure! And he isn't old either. He did the piece and so he gets some stick for it. He's not been seen on Twitter tonight so far!

any news is good news...

But it isn't, you see. Mud sticks, as I've said previously. We aren't a big enough sport to absorb the shocking excuse for a programme with it's terrible timing that was tonight's Inside Out or whatever it is called. I just hope any potential sponsors have seen it for what it is ...

#111 trakl

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:54 PM

Hardly 'poor old'! That suntan wasn't obtained in this country, that's for sure! And he isn't old either. He did the piece and so he gets some stick for it. He's not been seen on Twitter tonight so far!


But it isn't, you see. Mud sticks, as I've said previously. We aren't a big enough sport to absorb the shocking excuse for a programme with it's terrible timing that was tonight's Inside Out or whatever it is called. I just hope any potential sponsors have seen it for what it is ...


Sorry, I'm on your side here... I was just being cheeky.

#112 JohnM

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:16 PM


Rob Wilson, Sports finance expert at Sheffield Hallam... He has experience in major contracted research projects with SIRC including the economic impact of major sport events such as the London Marathon, sponsorship perceptions at the F1 British Grand Prix and environmental impacts of the Women's Rugby World Cup.

isn't him saying "Using a term like 'Rugby League is staring at the financial abyss' is not too harsh a thing to say," a bit sensational and scare-mongering?

#113 trakl

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 11:21 PM


Rob Wilson, Sports finance expert at Sheffield Hallam... He has experience in major contracted research projects with SIRC including the economic impact of major sport events such as the London Marathon, sponsorship perceptions at the F1 British Grand Prix and environmental impacts of the Women's Rugby World Cup.

isn't him saying "Using a term like 'Rugby League is staring at the financial abyss' is not too harsh a thing to say," a bit sensational and scare-mongering?


I got his research paper on the "environmental impacts of the Women's Rugby (sic) World Cup" as a Christmas present - it was either that or a brand new mountain bike with which to ride over the South Downs...

I haven't got round to reading it yet.

#114 roughyedspud

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:14 AM

Wrong. Sky paid nothing towards the Championship. The Championships are now on Premier Sports (who also paid nothing for them). The internationals are awarded separately, hence the BBC got them in autumn last year. The challenge cup likewise is awarded separately and last year both the BBC and Sky were awarded bits of the comp.

Sky paid £126 million over five years for Super League and only Super League.




i meant £126m was the combined worth of the tv deals....my bad its actually £135m for SL & CC(2012 to 2016).....that includes roughly £1m for international origin too

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Edited by roughyedspud, 29 January 2013 - 05:48 AM.

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#115 gingerjon

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:06 AM

as the Times' Chris Irvine suggests, any news is good news...


That must be why he spends his entire time on twitter doing TGG down.
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#116 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:16 AM

Neither. They just convert them to shares! At least, they do at Saints anyway.


Ah! so Saints are heavily in debt and on the brink of collapse then :D

#117 The Parksider

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:22 AM

It was a spectacularly misguided and financially illiterate reading of sets of accounts. Absolutely stunned that it went to the screens without anyone credibly asking the question, "is any of this debt a problem?".

The vast majority of it is owed to directors who are not expecting to see it repaid. That is completely not an issue. The headline figure was and is irrelevant, it's whether any of the clubs with debt need to pay it back or do not have directors who are willing or able to continue covering it.


Clearly Huddersfield are deep in debt and have plans to go deeper for many years to come :lol:

The game has to take every penny anyone wants to gift it.

But the over riding principle applies that if that money is used just to keep a small club up with the big boys, rather than grow the small club into a bigger club then you just store up the problem until Mr. Rich leaves.

Not a financial problem if he doesn't want his moneyback, just a problem that an SL place is taken up by a club that isn't helping grow the game.

#118 M j M

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:03 AM

Clearly Huddersfield are deep in debt and have plans to go deeper for many years to come :lol:

The game has to take every penny anyone wants to gift it.

But the over riding principle applies that if that money is used just to keep a small club up with the big boys, rather than grow the small club into a bigger club then you just store up the problem until Mr. Rich leaves.

Not a financial problem if he doesn't want his moneyback, just a problem that an SL place is taken up by a club that isn't helping grow the game.

Agree, that's the issue but they just didn't make that case. They led with a headline figure which is, frankly, irrelevant. They then sort of had a bit where they said it was hard to get people out of their armchairs but that doesn't tally with RL crowds which at top flight level have been at unprecedented levels over recent years. It's still a relatively small game and it has many challenges but this particular piece didn't get to the bottom of them whatsoever; it went in with its big lead SHOCK figure. Like I said, I'm embarrassed for GR who is usually quite good on daily sports reports but evidently doesn't have a deeper understanding of financial statements or sports finance - or who was happy to be too easily led by the nose by that seemingly clueless fellow from Sheffield.

It shied away from naming names or focussing on any clubs in particular but as it stands the vast majority of clubs are either financially healthy or have backers who have shown no intention of removing their backing. Focussing on the challenges of the London/Huddersfield single backer model or the more potentially precarious positions of Cas or possibly HKR or looking back at what happened at Bulls or Salford could have been insightful. The broad brush approach was frankly pretty worthless.

#119 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:27 AM

The problem with the report is it doesnt give many facts and only looks at SL and not the other parts of the game. having said that there are major problems in the game and they are being wrongly addressed.

Some people on here need to get their heads out the sand and look at the real picture and not the one they want. Whilst the game is not in meltdown it is in serious trouble. Very poor management at most clubs in and out of SL has got us to the point where many clubs are strugglimng to survive. The really short term thinking of getting rid of academy teams to save money and getting Championship teams to act as a type of reserve/feeder club will damage the game mid to long term. SL is full of badly run clubs who since 1996 have thrown money away on trips abroad and over rated Australians and player agents instead of investing for the future off field or giving youth a chance instead of a unknown Aussie.

The massive loss of grant money from Sport England will cause massive damage to many areas which have had a Development officer(s). This is a real concern and I would rather the BBC or any Journo look at where the game is heading at all levels and speak to people at Grassroots level who often have more idea about things than some CEO at a SL Club.

SL is not dieing but its at a crossroads for many of its clubs. Can the game survive full time of will it slip into a Semi pro stage as most of the clubs even in SL cant afford or be properly managed to be fulltime without running up debts that eventually hurt them.

#120 Marauder

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 08:37 AM

I wouldn't sorry to much, it looks like every team sport seems to be having financial problems.

Could the day of the silly wages in some sports be coming to an end.
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