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History of Bradford


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65 replies to this topic

#41 gingerjon

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 09:41 AM

Didn't a soccer club try to sign Jim Sullivan from Wigan - I'm sure I read that somewhere.
BTW weren't Blackheath RU founder members of the FA?

They were. I used to know which other now RFU teams were FA in the early days. I'm sure Barnes FC (Inverdale is/was President) was.
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#42 Bulliac

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 10:46 AM

In your desire to educate me, you've missed my point. Im well aware of how things were, having read the same books as you. My point was rather, why, given the circumstances, only two clubs, coincidentally(?) from the same city, chose to switch.

It's pretty imposible to say, so many years on, though from what I've read of the Park Avenue/ Northern split, the soocer side of the incident seemed to be influenced strongly by the argument that soccer would draw in more more supporters and therefore more money.
No team is an island.........................................

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#43 Johnoco

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:11 AM

I think Tony Fattorini, whose firm made the Challenge Cup and the FA Cup, was instrumental in Bradford switching to soccer. So clearly the switchers had a lot of clout. There were also people who voted to rejoin the RFU (sorry if someone's already said that)

#44 The Parksider

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:33 AM

Didn't a soccer club try to sign Jim Sullivan from Wigan - I'm sure I read that somewhere.
BTW weren't Blackheath RU founder members of the FA?


Padge will tell you definitively I'll bet.

Hunslet tried to sign Jackie Milburn in the 1950's, when he fell out with his soccer club, it was a serious offer but they 99.9% knew he would not come.

You'll remember powderhall sprinters being chased too.

Today sportspeople don't switch readily even between the Rugby Codes in the early days they did.

#45 marklaspalmas

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:34 AM

I have no desire to educate you at all and I didn't read it in any books I read it from source. I read it in the newspapers of the day, and I think you missed my point. Switching was easy, the prospects in soccer better and IMHO when one went over successfully their rivals looked at the situation just across the city and thought - we'll have a go. But don't let me patronise you, as I say you can go read the same source material Delaney or Collins read and make your own mind up, you may come to a far more reasonable and accurate conclusion than me, and you won't have to go round asking others..


I think you've let a bit of willy waving get in the way of your posting.

 

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#46 The Parksider

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:37 AM

I think you've let a bit of willy waving get in the way of your posting.


I think you have been graceless and rude.

#47 The Parksider

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 11:39 AM

I think Tony Fattorini, whose firm made the Challenge Cup and the FA Cup, was instrumental in Bradford switching to soccer. So clearly the switchers had a lot of clout. There were also people who voted to rejoin the RFU (sorry if someone's already said that)


A cut and paste....

"The creation of Bradford City led to demands for association football at Park Avenue too. The ground had already hosted some football matches including one in the 1880s between Blackburn Rovers and Blackburn Olympic F.C.. In 1895, a Bradford side had beaten a team from Moss Side, Manchester, by 4–1 in front of 3,000 spectators. With becoming successful at Bradford City, a meeting was called of the Bradford FC members on April 15, 1907 to decide the rugby club's future. An initial vote appeared to favour continuing in the Northern Union, but then opinion shifted towards rugby union and the Chairman, Mr Briggs, used his influence to swing the committee behind the proposed move to association football. This act, sometimes referred to as "The Great Betrayal", led to Bradford FC becoming the Bradford Park Avenue association football club. The minority faction decided to split and form a new Northern Union club, appropriately called Bradford Northern, which applied for and was granted Bradford FC's place in the Northern Union for the 1907–08 season. Bradford Northern's first home ground was the Greenfield Athletic stadium in Dudley Hill, to the south of the city. They based themselves at the Greenfield Hotel."

Every last scrap of info to answer any historical question is out there and available to us all not just the professors....

Edited by The Parksider, 01 February 2013 - 11:39 AM.


#48 marklaspalmas

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:03 PM

I think you have been graceless and rude.


I think you better get down off your high horse.

No rudeness was intended. Looking back through the thread I asked why switching from established NU clubs to soccer took place only (it appears) in Bradford. You then seemed (to me, I may be wrong) to justify more how such a switch could take place (which to my mind was given and needed no justification) without addressing the issue of why it happened only in Bradford and not elsewhere. Hence my comment about you missing the point. My mild accusation of pedantry/patronisation stands.

 

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#49 gingerjon

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

They were. I used to know which other now RFU teams were FA in the early days. I'm sure Barnes FC (Inverdale is/was President) was.


To quote myself: Barnes were indeed founder members and competed in the FA Cup until the 1880s. They currently play in the National 3 in the rugby union pyramid.
Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
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#50 Johnoco

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:11 PM

I think I remember reading that Billy Batten was offered deals by soccer clubs too, But could be mistaken there.

#51 Li0nhead

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:13 PM

Just for clarification (to Bradford fans), mine was a genuine question and not a conduit into allowing fans of other clubs to reignite that tedious debate about how-old-is-your-club. Much less was the intention to see some dreary LUFC/MUFC nonsense.

Did any other NU club defect to soccer?


A Union Side in Dewsbury sort of:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Dewsbury_Rams

Dewsbury Athletic and Football Club

The idea of establishing a rugby football club in Dewsbury originated among a few friends at a meeting at the Little Saddle Inn in 1875. Established with immediate effect, Dewsbury Athletic and Football Club enrolled between 30 and 40 members.
On 20 November 1875, the first recorded match of Dewsbury Athletic and Football Club took place when they played Heckmondwike Church Society XV and lost by one goal, six tries and eight touch downs to nil. The first home game, it is generally held, took place on 4 December 1875 in a field off Sugar Lane, opposite the future Crown Flatt. In a 13-a-side "scratch" game, the two outfits - one selected by the Captain and the other by the Vice-Captain - fought out a draw. The club soon realised they needed a ground and the following year secured a sub tenancy at Crown Flatt for £200.

During the course of the 1879-80 season the club colours changed from blue and cardinal to black, crimson and yellow.

On 27 March 1880, the Yorkshire Cup semi-final against Wakefield Trinity drew an estimated 16,000 supporters to Crown Flatt which the local newspaper claimed to be the largest assemblage ever seen on a football ground in Yorkshire.

1881 saw the club's first success in the Yorkshire Challenge Cup beating Huddersfield, Bradford and Halifax before an Alfred Newsome drop goal gave them victory over Wakefield Trinity in the final.

When York paid a visit to Crown Flatt on 25 September 1886, the home team took to the field wearing white jerseys that incorporated the borough's coat of arms.

[edit]Dewsbury and Savile Cricket and Football Club

Crown Flatt was rapidly gaining the reputation as one of the best-equipped ground in Yorkshire. This was further enhanced when the club purchased the famous "Noah's Ark" stand at a cost of £250. In 1888, the club amalgamated with Savile Cricket Club and United Clerks’ Cricket Club to form Dewsbury and Savile Cricket and Football Club.

The Yorkshire Senior Competition was formed in 1892 and Dewsbury immediately became members. They made their Senior Competition début at Liversedge on 10 September 1892, Dewsbury were beaten 2-10. The club struggled and finished in the bottom three due to financial problems. The arrival of competitive leagues meant that attendances were increasing connected to on-field success. Dewsbury failed to adapt to the new era: attendances from then onwards topped 2,000 only on rare occasions.

By 1895, Dewsbury were sporting blue and white. At the famous meeting at the George Hotel in Huddersfield, Dewsbury were the only members of the Yorkshire Senior Competition not to resign from the Rugby Football Union instead requesting permission to consult further. At a special meeting convened at the King’s Arms Hotel, Market Place, on 2 September, they elected to remain in the Senior Competition and marginally improved their position in the league to 10th. Next season however they were back at the bottom.

On 22 November 1897, the General Committee of Dewsbury and Savile Cricket and Football Club elected to abandon rugby union with immediate effect. Of the 12 league matches contested by the club that season, all but one - and that a draw - were lost. In reply to the 156 points conceded, the team registered just two tries. The 0-5 loss to Otley on 13 November 1897 was the final rugby union game played at Crown Flatt. By the time of its demise, the football section had contested more than 500 matches. They withdrew from the league concentrating on soccer instead.

[edit]New club formed

On 21 April 1898 an historic meeting was held at the Black Bull public house to consider the possibility of forming a new Northern Union club. The question was discussed at some length and over £100 in donations was promised. Ironically it was local rivals Batley who helped Dewsbury gain election to the Northern Union. They were fully supportive of Dewsbury's bid and obviously looked forward to rekindling the rivalry, as well as their pockets, with the derby matches and also to thank the old Dewsbury supporters who had switched their support to Batley's Mount Pleasant ground during the two or three preceding seasons.



#52 Johnoco

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:16 PM

. You then seemed (to me, I may be wrong) to justify more how such a switch could take place (which to my mind was given and needed no justification) without addressing the issue of why it happened only in Bradford and not elsewhere. Hence my comment about you missing the point.

Incredible as it may seem today, at the time Bradford was a pretty classy place with a lot of rich people about. Bradford FC were a pretty well to do club, perhaps they saw the oiks over at Manningham doing quite well and felt that was where the action was?

Just a theory.

#53 MrPosh

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:53 PM

Incredible as it may seem today, at the time Bradford was a pretty classy place with a lot of rich people about. Bradford FC were a pretty well to do club, perhaps they saw the oiks over at Manningham doing quite well and felt that was where the action was?

Just a theory.


Indeed. Especially the areas around Park Avenue. Little Horton Green and some of the roads off the lower part of Great Horton Road have extremely nice houses (or buildings anyway, as a lot of them are University premises now, rather than houses). I would imagine that only Heaton (Millionaires Row and all that) was a nicer area in Bradford at that time.

And then they plonked the Canterbury Estate down next to Park Avenue and, well...

Edited by MrPosh, 01 February 2013 - 12:55 PM.

People called Romans they go the house

#54 marklaspalmas

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:57 PM

Incredible as it may seem today, at the time Bradford was a pretty classy place with a lot of rich people about. Bradford FC were a pretty well to do club, perhaps they saw the oiks over at Manningham doing quite well and felt that was where the action was?

Just a theory.


Quite possible. Perhaps those who set up Brdaford PA were influenced by the success with which Manningham had switched.

 

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#55 marklaspalmas

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

A Union Side in Dewsbury sort of:

http://en.wikipedia....i/Dewsbury_Rams


Very interesting, thanks for posting.

 

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#56 The Parksider

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:17 PM

My mild accusation of pedantry/patronisation stands.


There was no need to be rude in the first place.

#57 marklaspalmas

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:38 PM

There was no need to be rude in the first place.


I wasn't.

Get down off your high horse. I tried to be as reconciliatory as possible in my post, but if you don't recognise that, then fine.

 

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#58 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:21 PM

Padge will tell you definitively I'll bet.

Hunslet tried to sign Jackie Milburn in the 1950's, when he fell out with his soccer club, it was a serious offer but they 99.9% knew he would not come.

You'll remember powderhall sprinters being chased too.

Today sportspeople don't switch readily even between the Rugby Codes in the early days they did.

There seems to be quite a few RL players who are lifelong fans of there local soccer clubs now season ticket holders .Lee Smith ,Danny McGuire etc
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#59 Wolford6

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 04:51 PM

I played rugby for thirty years and, league or union, it was usually a current or ex-soccer player who was the goalkicker.

Most good soccer players have more natural ability than most good rugby players ... the ones who chose soccer generally did it because they don't get bashed about as much.

If amateur rugby switched to a summer season, you'd get plenty of lads playing both.

Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#60 Trojan

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 06:44 PM

Here is the answer
http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y
I knew there was a book about it some where.
"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013