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Phil Clarkes thoughts on Dual reg


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#41 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:19 PM

What does his margin meter have to say about it?
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#42 shaun mc

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:42 PM

The DR system is understood to save £1.4m p.a
The SL clubs decided to share the Bradford half of their Sky money that was witheld for this season between themselves. If that is £0.6k, then that leaves a £0.8k shortfall between the 14 clubs.

They can't fund that? Its £57,100 each. Surely they can?

The downside of that is the risk to player development, and the structure and integrity of the Championship as a separate competition to SL.
IMO if a player such as a Kevin Brown or a Stefan Ratchford are picked for a one-off appearance on a DR basis, and have such influence over the outcome of that game to achieve a 3 points win, that in the end, makes the difference between obtaining a play-off place or avoiding relegation for the team they represent, then the whole competition has been compromised and is false.

Next year, each SL club has £42,850 less money (as they won't have the Bradford portion) and then they have to fund a reserve team in competitions. But still they can't afford this year?

#43 The Parksider

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 11:55 PM

If this is the way to go, then Leeds need to fund the whole excercise. They need to buy out Hunslet and fund the whole feeder system. What is the point of Hunslet having independent boards and directors and ground leasing arrangements. In fact what is the point of ordering Hunslet shirts. They may as well play in Leeds shirts and get the benefits from a bulk order one one design shirts from the manufacturer.

What is the point of these teams existing as seperate entities ?


Good point.

I really am not sure of the answer.......

#44 The Parksider

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:06 AM

Rubbish! Some Championship players recruit many players from their academy because they do things properly. They then sign the odd outsider from SL or Championship. Iain Davies, Ryan Fieldhouse, Sam Smeaton, Martin Ridyard, Jimmy Taylor etc came through Championship Academy or direct from the amateur game to play at Championship level. And do you really expect the badly run academy teams at SL clubs to provide players for 30 odd teams?


There's me thinking Championship clubs are exclusively made up of players the SL clubs don't sign.

#45 hindle xiii

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

Next year, each SL club has £42,850 less money (as they won't have the Bradford portion) and then they have to fund a reserve team in competitions. But still they can't afford this year?

Yes, they will. We were bum rushed for two seasons.

If you use "should of", "would of" or "could of", you are a moron.

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#46 sweaty craiq

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:06 AM

There's me thinking Championship clubs are exclusively made up of players the SL clubs don't sign.


At Leigh Pownall, Goulden, Taylor, Hopkins, Nicholson, Penky, Littler, Higson, all came through East/Miners/Academy as did Higham at Wire and Hill arrived at 15.

#47 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:45 PM

Are you saying that Phil Clark is arguing for p and r. i see no evidence of that. He is arguing against the reduction of the number and opportunity for young players to develop due to the dissolution of the under 23 teams. I do not see any argument for the re introduction of p and r from him.

The idea that young players being jettisoned from the game except for four or five on DR is not a positive. The idea that the young players will benefit the standards of the Championships existing players is not bearing fruit as only one independent Championship club has yet been beaten by a twinned organisation and some of the A teams have been right royally thrashed by independent's.

I beg to differ that Feeder teams are being created for everybody's benefit. They are not even really being created for SL's benefit on the playing development front, only on the financial front.

Have you contacted Phil Clark and told him he is stuck in the past. I bet he won't agree.


Clarke isn't arguing for P&R but those on this forum who oppose DR and any kind of erosion of smaller sides' identities generally do, which is my point. I doubt said fans would mind seeing a glut of SL loanees in their sides shirts if the ladder/trap door was still in place a la EPL players regularly spending a season in the soccerball Championship. I suspect theirs is a dishonest dislike of DR hiding beneath a larger disgruntlement, this is my point.

Clarke's comments are well-meaning but IMHO misguided. I have no real gripe with him, he's entitled to his views and is one of the more articulate and interesting spokesmen for our game.

#48 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

It is also a very arrogant assumption to assume that young players attached to SL clubs are better players than experienced Championship players, thereby raising the standards in the Championship. In many cases they aren't - they may have the potential to be but currently they aren't.


So why is pretty much every team in the lower tiers rushing headlong to secure DR deals then and this such a big issue in the first place? You're basically turning your own argument against yourself. Hoist by your own petard.

#49 Griff

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:49 PM

There's me thinking Championship clubs are exclusively made up of players the SL clubs don't sign.


Au contraire. We now have dual registration and many Championship players are players who the $L clubs do sign. ^_^
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#50 Griff

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:53 PM

So why is pretty much every team in the lower tiers rushing headlong to secure DR deals then and this such a big issue in the first place?


Because they're cheaper as they're paid by the $uperleague club.

On the playing ability point,I don't think it is a big issue.
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#51 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 12:59 PM

Because they're cheaper as they're paid by the $uperleague club.


So a good thing, then?

But clearly most coaches also think they give a team with them a distinct edge on any team without.

#52 Keith T

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:20 PM

So why is pretty much every team in the lower tiers rushing headlong to secure DR deals then and this such a big issue in the first place? You're basically turning your own argument against yourself. Hoist by your own petard.


You obviously know very little about the Championships and even less about the dual registration system that has been imposed.

SL clubs have been discussing this since last April about finding a way around getting rid of Under 18's and Under 20's to save them money. The RFL worked with them and suggested that they do away with both those age groups and just retain Under 19' s and Under 23's. Despite one or two SL clubs disagreeing they voted to also do away with the Under 23's as well as the other two age groups.

All that was done before the Championship clubs had even met to discuss the ramifications of what was happening and also prior to that meeting Leeds and Hunslet had already announced their partnership and one or two other clubs had been working to make similar arrangements.

Once that particular ball had started rolling other clubs could see that if they didn't go down the same route then they could be left behind and easily be relegated to the Championship 1 at the end of the season. That fact has had more to do with the upset over dual registrations than any talk of P & R to Sl being reinstated.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#53 jpmc

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 01:43 PM

You obviously know very little about the Championships and even less about the dual registration system that has been imposed.

SL clubs have been discussing this since last April about finding a way around getting rid of Under 18's and Under 20's to save them money. The RFL worked with them and suggested that they do away with both those age groups and just retain Under 19' s and Under 23's. Despite one or two SL clubs disagreeing they voted to also do away with the Under 23's as well as the other two age groups.

All that was done before the Championship clubs had even met to discuss the ramifications of what was happening and also prior to that meeting Leeds and Hunslet had already announced their partnership and one or two other clubs had been working to make similar arrangements.

Once that particular ball had started rolling other clubs could see that if they didn't go down the same route then they could be left behind and easily be relegated to the Championship 1 at the end of the season. That fact has had more to do with the upset over dual registrations than any talk of P & R to Sl being reinstated.


I agree with what you are saying,i would also add that the DR system has been in place for 'i think' 4 seasons now and it hasn't been much of a problem til now, because if a champ club needed a player it could go to ANY sl club and ask for a YOUNG player/s to cover any problems, which helped all concerned.

The problem now is they've upping the number from 4 to 5 and directly linked one club to another by saying you can only use players from one club,that makes the championship clubs A teams,and if this situation isn't stopped its going to get worse for the whole league.

#54 The Parksider

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 03:10 PM

At Leigh Pownall, Goulden, Taylor, Hopkins, Nicholson, Penky, Littler, Higson, all came through East/Miners/Academy as did Higham at Wire and Hill arrived at 15.


Yes but SL clubs took Higham, Hill and Littler so the situation has been for years that the Championship is full of players the SL reject. This is wether the SL clubs don't pick them up from amateur or Championship academy in the first place, or whether the SL clubs do pick them up but eventually reject them.

As this moves on towards "A" teams Championship clubs will save money in wages, SL clubs will save money running the team below their first team, and those players good enough will progress from championship sister club to SL sister club. Those not good enough are open to find another club but may drop out.

The same numbers of the best kids will still flow into the development system only the Championship will replace the U23 league, which it seems to me was an "A" team league?.

Clarke speaks about SL players putting Championship players noses out of joint, and there's a lot of talk about disruption, and the U23 being imporet, but surely that is because what has been created is a halfway house. If this is really one of those silly political manouverings where clubs "start" with a maximum four dual registrations and tell us all "nothing to see move along" then after all the furore has died down it moves to five, then it moves to a senior SL player being put in for game time, then it moves to 6 dual reg and 2 players wanting game time, you end up with 8 players from Leeds playing for Hunslet.

My point is Clarke is commenting on the problems the current situation creates. But if the Superleague make the Championship into what the U23 league is Clarkes points won't be relevant.

Edited by The Parksider, 21 February 2013 - 03:10 PM.


#55 Keith T

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:01 PM

The current system does tend to look as if it could move in that direction Parky but it surely is down to the coaches at both clubs to see that the true spirit of the system is what comes through.

The rules do not stipulate any set number of players that can be dual registered and there were many posts when Widnes dual registered their whole squad to Workington.. Many were suggesting that Workington would be playing all sorts of international players, etc, but nothing could be further from the truth and what has actually happened.

To date Workington have used 20 yr old Declan Hulme in 3 games, 21 yr old Grant Gore in 2 games and 23 yr old Ben Davies in 1 game. Even this week, Widnes have no game due to Leeds playing Storm which in theory means that every Widnes player is available Workington have stuck with two, Hulme and Gore for their home game with Sheffield. This, to my mind, is the correct way the system should be used and all credit to the Workington and Widnes coaches for doing it this way.

We seem to be stuck with this system for this season but for next season if the SL clubs are still not to have a reserve team then I suggest a dual registered system with a limit of say 6 or 7 players may be registered and make it that those players were Under 25 and only any 4 could play in any 1 game. I think the Under 23 grade should be altered to either Under 25 or 26 which caters for young players who may be late developers,

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#56 a.n Other

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:32 PM

At least Gateshead have nailed their colours to the mast. They are having the HKR badge on their playing shirt this year. Will other dual clubs follow?

#57 sweaty craiq

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 07:36 PM

Ben Davies is a Leigh lad too.

#58 jpmc

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:17 PM

The current system does tend to look as if it could move in that direction Parky but it surely is down to the coaches at both clubs to see that the true spirit of the system is what comes through.

The rules do not stipulate any set number of players that can be dual registered and there were many posts when Widnes dual registered their whole squad to Workington.. Many were suggesting that Workington would be playing all sorts of international players, etc, but nothing could be further from the truth and what has actually happened.

To date Workington have used 20 yr old Declan Hulme in 3 games, 21 yr old Grant Gore in 2 games and 23 yr old Ben Davies in 1 game. Even this week, Widnes have no game due to Leeds playing Storm which in theory means that every Widnes player is available Workington have stuck with two, Hulme and Gore for their home game with Sheffield. This, to my mind, is the correct way the system should be used and all credit to the Workington and Widnes coaches for doing it this way.

We seem to be stuck with this system for this season but for next season if the SL clubs are still not to have a reserve team then I suggest a dual registered system with a limit of say 6 or 7 players may be registered and make it that those players were Under 25 and only any 4 could play in any 1 game. I think the Under 23 grade should be altered to either Under 25 or 26 which caters for young players who may be late developers,


Do you believe your club should be linked to one sl club thus becoming its A team?

#59 The Parksider

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 08:40 PM

The current system does tend to look as if it could move in that direction Parky but it surely is down to the coaches at both clubs to see that the true spirit of the system is what comes through.

The rules do not stipulate any set number of players that can be dual registered and there were many posts when Widnes dual registered their whole squad to Workington.. Many were suggesting that Workington would be playing all sorts of international players, etc, but nothing could be further from the truth and what has actually happened.

To date Workington have used 20 yr old Declan Hulme in 3 games, 21 yr old Grant Gore in 2 games and 23 yr old Ben Davies in 1 game. Even this week, Widnes have no game due to Leeds playing Storm which in theory means that every Widnes player is available Workington have stuck with two, Hulme and Gore for their home game with Sheffield. This, to my mind, is the correct way the system should be used and all credit to the Workington and Widnes coaches for doing it this way.

We seem to be stuck with this system for this season but for next season if the SL clubs are still not to have a reserve team then I suggest a dual registered system with a limit of say 6 or 7 players may be registered and make it that those players were Under 25 and only any 4 could play in any 1 game. I think the Under 23 grade should be altered to either Under 25 or 26 which caters for young players who may be late developers,


Thank you for your post.

I'd suggest coaches are paid to do as they are told, and it's the board who will really dictate policy.

What happens at other clubs we will see, but at Hunslet they very quickly got as far as youngsters Keinhorst, Watson and Hood down to play and then Leuluai and Moore to also play to keep them match fit, then Brad Singleton decides to go to Hunslet from loan at Wakefield.

That's six players and this "thing" has only been going a matter of weeks.

Hunslet have no way out of this, and looking to "limit the number" is for what purpose? Is it so that the actual Hunslet players are not put out that much??

My point is that it's gone so far so quickly at Hunslet, that they may as well just drop any pretence, and openly and honestly turn the team into an "A" team.

Years ago when Hunslet at first team level were awful, we had a great "A" team and at Parkside when the seniors were losing all the time, we had an "A" team that were Yorkshire senior competition winners and YSC cup runners up. The cup game at Parkside attracted 2,000 whilst the senior side were on 800 crowds.

So why not just get on with it and create something that may be able to compete in the Championship (rather than lose 40-0 to Leigh and lose at home to Dewsbury). you never know it may just get the fans coming back like the "A" team at Parkside did.

Edited by The Parksider, 21 February 2013 - 08:42 PM.


#60 Keith T

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 09:43 PM

Do you believe your club should be linked to one sl club thus becoming its A team?


I am not a believer in this sort of system so, no, I am not in favour of it. However, because of other clubs taking this course and us having just managed to get out of Championship 1 after 10 years I can see why our club took this option so as not to be left behind.

We had dual registered players last year from different clubs but we were let down when those players were made not available to us by their SL clubs, so again I can see some merit in a SL club "offering" players to a Championship club but the system as we have been foisted with is not fit for purpose and poses more questions than answers.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.





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