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Phil Clarkes thoughts on Dual reg


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#101 keighley

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:38 PM

It's up to you if you want to just make out RFL/SLE haven't a clue, you'll be joining fellow detractors on here.

Others may wish to remind you SL started out as a concept of putting all the resources the game had into one aim - an Elite league pulling a big TV contract.

Resistance came from fans and clubs, but the RFL/SLE didn't give up and now we see what resources Hunslet have, directly contributing heavily to the progress of Leeds.

As usual Hetherington leads this real progress.



SL started as a drowning man clinging to a lifebelt. If there had been a lifeboat available, many more would have been saved, but there was only one small lifebelt.

Hunslet are contributing to the high church of Leeds. They are contributing absolutlet NOTHING to the broader church of the total kingdom of RL.

You muts have annointed Hetherington after Lindsay resigned the papacy. He has the same narrow vision.

#102 keighley

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

I don't think they can dominate either. But if this DR was taken too far , it could skew results and league tables. It is then that the play-offs come in to their own and we need to take care over who should play in those. By the time they come around, some $uperleague clubs may have ended their season......

Powell and Aston were indeed concerned about the "integrity of the competition" which was a phrase mentioned frequently at the meeting with Ralph Rimmer. However, there is also the issue of player development and how an ambitious club might put itself in a position to apply for $uperleague. We still do have promotion and relegation, albeit every three years. It is the declared intention that (at least) one club - subject to meeting the criteria - will be promoted but at present the pathway is unclear. It's difficult to run development teams when there's no-one else to play. Last year's six team Reserve Grade wasn't great.


I don't know how many Warrington players turned out for Swinton yesterday as opposed to Castleford players for Keighley. It would be interesting to know because a home loss to Swinton has the appearance of a skewed result to me and is one that could just doom Keighley.

#103 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:43 PM

SL started as a drowning man clinging to a lifebelt. If there had been a lifeboat available, many more would have been saved, but there was only one small lifebelt.

Hunslet are contributing to the high church of Leeds. They are contributing absolutlet NOTHING to the broader church of the total kingdom of RL.

You muts have annointed Hetherington after Lindsay resigned the papacy. He has the same narrow vision.

:D :D :D :D :D :D
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#104 The Parksider

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:06 PM

You must have annointed Hetherington after Lindsay resigned the papacy. He has the same narrow vision.


Vision's a great word.

Lyndsay had a vision of a fully professional RL widening it's base outside the M62, Hetherington has a vision of a series of big SL clubs whom the sporting world will sit up and take notice of. He sold out Headingley on Friday BTW.

What's your vision besides trying to look back to the past?

#105 Marauder

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:20 PM

Vision's a great word.

Lyndsay had a vision of a fully professional RL widening it's base outside the M62, Hetherington has a vision of a series of big SL clubs whom the sporting world will sit up and take notice of. He sold out Headingley on Friday BTW.

What's your vision besides trying to look back to the past?

Vision's a great word.

Lyndsay had a vision of a fully professional RL widening it's base outside the M62, Hetherington has a vision of a series of big SL clubs whom the sporting world will sit up and take notice of. He sold out Headingley on Friday BTW.

What's your vision besides trying to look back to the past?

Vision's a great word.

Lyndsay had a vision of a fully professional RL widening it's base outside the M62, Hetherington has a vision of a series of big SL clubs whom the sporting world will sit up and take notice of. He sold out Headingley on Friday BTW.

What's your vision besides trying to look back to the past?

Can Rugby League (Not Super League) survive with just 10 to 14 clubs? the rest of the clubs have simply just become `A` teams and I'm sure that this will not be sending the message out to any maybe sponsors.
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#106 Marauder

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:25 PM

Whilst the original Sky deal may have talked about merging sides, it didn't have any direct influence past that top tier.
DR of last year may have been the start of this, but its certainly not attributable to Sky.
IMO its completely down to clubs at the top end being unable to either finance or organise their player development pathways to give squad players and the best youngsters in their area the greatest opportunities to become established 1st team SL players or even better.
Why they feel they need to abandon reserve grade this year and all its ramifications is perplexing to put it mildly. Yet they are going to put it all back together again next year, with funding and players. Now that bit is really way off kilter. Are Warrington going to ask Swinton for their players back? How will Swinton cope? Where will the players re-appear from? How will they fund it - is there something happening we don't know about next year?

One of my worries is like 95% of RFL plans this goes #### up as well how will the championship clubs survive and how will they be able to reverse the process with all the financial wealth being with the SL clubs.
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#107 JohnM

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:41 PM

SL started as a drowning man clinging to a lifebelt. If there had been a lifeboat available, many more would have been saved, but there was only one small lifebelt.

Hunslet are contributing to the high church of Leeds. They are contributing absolutlet NOTHING to the broader church of the total kingdom of RL.

You muts have annointed Hetherington after Lindsay resigned the papacy. He has the same narrow vision.


Oh dear. It is not Lindsay who had the narrow vision. It is not Hetherington who has the narrow vision..it's..its... Monty Python's Flying Circus! I feel we are entering a period where the Championship is about to move forward in the same way that SuperlLeague moved forward, So many of the details behind DR are missing, assumed wrong, but in my opinion, anything that improves the quality and attractiveness of Championship games has to be good. Anything that improves attendances, anything that helps to reduce the gap between SL and Championship clubs has to be good. All thus guff about stopping player development is just rubbish. A move vibrant and intense competition will appeal to more potential players not fewer.

I appreciate there are those who work intensively at the grass roots level to develop teams, and players but it is not always possible to see the whole picture. So much of the criticism on here is before-the-fact.So lets actually measure these results at the end of the season - attendances, results, stats, and look to next season to see if any Championship sides progress further in the Cup. This is what really counts.

#108 keighley

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:52 PM

Vision's a great word.

Lyndsay had a vision of a fully professional RL widening it's base outside the M62, Hetherington has a vision of a series of big SL clubs whom the sporting world will sit up and take notice of. He sold out Headingley on Friday BTW.

What's your vision besides trying to look back to the past?


Paris, abject failure, South Wales Crusaders, failure. North Wales Crusaders, failure, Gateshead, failure, Sheffield Mark1 failure, London, just about terminal, Catalan, success. So that's 6 failures to one success. How's the wider vision outside the M62 working out so far? Having a vision is no good if it never becomes reality and I am called a dreamer.

Hetherington did not sell out Headingley for the previous home games this season. Was he on vacation ? I would suggest to you that the draw of seeing the top NRL side sold out Headingley and Hetherington has very little or nothing to do with it.

My vision has nothing to do with the past. I have never suggested resurrecting Broughton or Leeds Parish Church of St Helens recs or The Mighty Bongers. I am actually in favour of expanding the game outside the heartlands and have been shot at mightily for suggesting the likes of Cumbria, Sheffield, Doncaster or York for SL. I have been criticised for bemoaning the fact that new expansion teams in the Championship 1 have been consigned to the dustbin of Dual Regs before they could even breath rthe words Super League.

You are just playing games asking me that question. You know my views and you want me to set them up so you can come up with some more pompous SL is great nonsense.

In fact SL is great, except that it can't manage it's own finances and is cannabalising the lower echelons of the game to save it's own bacon. Modern society has evolved from the Divine Right of Kings era. Meritocracy and the opportunities for upward mobility and admitting more of society to the middle class are the watchwords of the modern era and here we are pushing and keeping more than half our game into serfdom and endentured servitude. Not very modern ideas there then.

Exspansion must be allowed by expanding the size of SL and failing members must be replaced by promotion of top tier Championships clubs. The SL clubs MUST be made to operate within their income whatever that might entail.

The player development system must be reinstated as it was producing more top level players than for a very long time. This will not happen with dual reg schemes.

This is essential for England and European RL to keep up if not compete with the standards of the Aussies. The World Cup and the international game must keep being played. The four nations has shown signs of being a great success if a tradition can be established with it. Any profits from the WC Must be ploughed back into International development or amateur development. There must be no sidetracking of monies to prop up SL.

Strenuous efforts must be made to expand both numerically and financially the scope and income of broadcasting deals for the game. If there is any progress, the SL needs to be expanded from the money not just existing teams propped up. There should be no contraction of SL as wanted by Pope Hetherington. Contraction is a slippery slope to extinction.

#109 keighley

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 04:57 PM

Oh dear. It is not Lindsay who had the narrow vision. It is not Hetherington who has the narrow vision..it's..its... Monty Python's Flying Circus! I feel we are entering a period where the Championship is about to move forward in the same way that SuperlLeague moved forward, So many of the details behind DR are missing, assumed wrong, but in my opinion, anything that improves the quality and attractiveness of Championship games has to be good. Anything that improves attendances, anything that helps to reduce the gap between SL and Championship clubs has to be good. All thus guff about stopping player development is just rubbish. A move vibrant and intense competition will appeal to more potential players not fewer.

I appreciate there are those who work intensively at the grass roots level to develop teams, and players but it is not always possible to see the whole picture. So much of the criticism on here is before-the-fact.So lets actually measure these results at the end of the season - attendances, results, stats, and look to next season to see if any Championship sides progress further in the Cup. This is what really counts.


Have you checked tghe attendances at the A team clubs.? They are falling like rocks. Have you checked out the results of some of the A teams ?. This concept is failing on both perceived fronts. There is no increase in standards and there is a decrease in attendances. Also what is the point of increasing the standards of the championships if half are A teams with no hope or even desire for advancement and the remainder are marginalised to one promotion every 3 years if you are lucky.

#110 shaun mc

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:14 PM

John M wrote - "anything that improves the quality and attractiveness of Championship games has to be good. Anything that improves attendances, anything that helps to reduce the gap between SL and Championship clubs has to be good. All thus guff about stopping player development is just rubbish. A move vibrant and intense competition will appeal to more potential players not fewer."

Absolutely no evidence that any of the above has happened and benefitted the Championship.
4 teams in the current top 6 have no DR or feeder club or A team arrangement. Its only 4 fixtures in of course, but I'll predict those 4 teams will still be in the top 6 by the end of the season. So the standards haven't increased.
The DR arrangement isn't going to bridge the gap between SL and the Championship. That can only be done by stand alone clubs.
i just can't see that If Swinton win the League with 8 to 10 Warrington players, that will mean that the gap has closed. If they are that good they will be going back to Warringtons 1st team squad anyway. That is if Swinton will transfer them back ;)
Having established SL players making a 30 minute appearance at their Championship DR club to get some fitness does absolutely nothing for the quality of the competition either.

#111 The Parksider

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 08:29 AM

Can Rugby League (Not Super League) survive with just 10 to 14 clubs? the rest of the clubs have simply just become `A` teams and I'm sure that this will not be sending the message out to any maybe sponsors.


I suspect the "vision" of the RFL/SLE is to look to down under and how the NRL and their feeder clubs work.

RL survives on the SKY contract we pretty much established that in a long debate.

Anything that puts that at risk of being lowered money wise will be a disaster.

Everyone always wants to forget that pro RL today is all about one thing, one piece of paper with "pay the RFL" £90,000,000.

And as big a pot of money that is, it isn't enough, that's why the Championship is being sacrificed.

#112 JohnM

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:16 AM

John M wrote - "anything that improves the quality and attractiveness of Championship games has to be good. Anything that improves attendances, anything that helps to reduce the gap between SL and Championship clubs has to be good. All thus guff about stopping player development is just rubbish. A move vibrant and intense competition will appeal to more potential players not fewer."

Absolutely no evidence that any of the above has happened and benefitted the Championship.
4 teams in the current top 6 have no DR or feeder club or A team arrangement. Its only 4 fixtures in of course, but I'll predict those 4 teams will still be in the top 6 by the end of the season. So the standards haven't increased.
The DR arrangement isn't going to bridge the gap between SL and the Championship. That can only be done by stand alone clubs.
i just can't see that If Swinton win the League with 8 to 10 Warrington players, that will mean that the gap has closed. If they are that good they will be going back to Warringtons 1st team squad anyway. That is if Swinton will transfer them back ;)
Having established SL players making a 30 minute appearance at their Championship DR club to get some fitness does absolutely nothing for the quality of the competition either.


which is why I advocate end of season measurement of what actually happens rather than guessing on the outcome now.

#113 tim2

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

It is really simple. The whole move is to save money for SL clubs.

Given a choice, and sufficient funds, the SL clubs would run reserves, academy and scholarships themselves.

So plan B is to throw a few bones to some struggling Championship sides who are scared of going down to CC1. DR may not affect who wins the competition, but a few well placed DR players in a critical game may well affect relegation. This does concern me - the standard of the Championship may be better than it would have been, marginally, but there could be (may not be, but could be) a serious effect on competition integrity.

Still, perhaps the Championship semi-pro sides are getting a taste of some of the medicine they give to amateur clubs who are below them in the pecking order of RL....
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#114 bobbruce

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

I suspect the "vision" of the RFL/SLE is to look to down under and how the NRL and their feeder clubs work.

RL survives on the SKY contract we pretty much established that in a long debate.

Anything that puts that at risk of being lowered money wise will be a disaster.

Everyone always wants to forget that pro RL today is all about one thing, one piece of paper with "pay the RFL" £90,000,000.

And as big a pot of money that is, it isn't enough, that's why the Championship is being sacrificed.


My guess on this is that outside the first choice 17 SL clubs only really need 5 or 6 experienced players that are too old to play in the under 19s. To keep those players in a comp SL clubs have to find another 15-20 players in order to run a reserve side. These players aren't on top wages so I bet SL clubs find themselves in bidding wars for these players with championship clubs. Bidding wars that I've no doubt SL clubs very often lose. So not only does inflate the costs of SLclubs it will also do it for championship clubs.

#115 The Parksider

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:45 AM

Strenuous efforts must be made to expand both numerically and financially the scope and income of broadcasting deals for the game. If there is any progress, the SL needs to be expanded from the money not just existing teams propped up. There should be no contraction of SL as wanted by Pope Hetherington. Contraction is a slippery slope to extinction.


Your at it again talking as though the RFL/SL aren't making every effort they can to maximise income.

What evidence do you have for that expect none?

You can spout all day about what should happen, but it needs financing.

#116 The Parksider

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 07:47 AM

It is really simple. The whole move is to save money for SL clubs.

Still, perhaps the Championship semi-pro sides are getting a taste of some of the medicine they give to amateur clubs who are below them in the pecking order of RL....


Save money? I think it's better described as "find additional income" (at the expense of CC clubs)

Your second observation is interesting - are you saying CC clubs should stop going round shouting "poor us" because they will only do the same to clubs below them?

#117 Griff

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 10:09 AM

It is really simple. The whole move is to save money for SL clubs.

Given a choice, and sufficient funds, the SL clubs would run reserves, academy and scholarships themselves.


The question is why have they not got sufficient funds. There's more money in the game than there was 20 years ago but apparently we can afford less.
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#118 The Parksider

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 01:02 PM

The question is why have they not got sufficient funds. There's more money in the game than there was 20 years ago but apparently we can afford less.


Go on I'll bite.

20 years ago the wage bill for the top division was not budgeted at over £23,000,000 a year.

20 years ago we didn't get £18,000,000 a year from SKY I know....... but the figures don't gel.

Plus on top of wages SL clubs are required to run Marketing and Youth development operations.

Recently Les Catalans, a vibrant SL club announced they would run on a £6,000,000 budget this year.

If we want a vibrant SL we need to find £84,000,000 a year to fund it.

Now go back to the SKY money £18,000 a year.

Bottom line is the Superleague are £66,000,000 a year short at the start of each year WITH the SKY money.

And there aren't enough fans/sponsors to make that up.

Mr. keighley says "In fact SL is great, except that it can't manage it's own finances and is cannabalising the lower echelons of the game to save it's own bacon".

He's half right but it isn't about managing the money, it's about generating the shortfall.

At the moment people in London and Salford don't give a monkeys about going to RL matches, not enough turn up at HKR. Cas, Huddersfield, Wakefield, Bradford and Widnes.

Mr. Keighley says "Expansion must be allowed by expanding the size of SL and failing members must be replaced by promotion of top tier Championships clubs. The SL clubs MUST be made to operate within their income".

The only reason clubs fail in Superleague is they don't get enough fans so I find it laughable that skint clubs with not enough fans should be replaced by skint clubs with even less fans. That's nonsense.

But to be fair to my old mate he indicates clubs should "operate within their income" and that IS a solution to all the money problems. But it's probably not as simple as that.

What you say?

#119 Griff

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 02:02 PM

Yes - I agree with (nearly) all that but the point I'm making is that we should pay for what we need in priority to what we want.

There are players out there who'd've happily play for less than they're getting - but, obviously, a mark's been set now and nobody wants a pay cut.

Is DR the best way to produce players - all other considerations aside ? :mellow: I'd be surprised if anyone in the game actually thought that.
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#120 keighley

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:49 PM

Your at it again talking as though the RFL/SL aren't making every effort they can to maximise income.

What evidence do you have for that expect none?

You can spout all day about what should happen, but it needs financing.


OK, fine. When they announce the new expanded TV deals, I will have been proved wrong and will be happy to admit it. Maybe the silence on WC coverage and then emergence of the BT sports channels are indications of changes are afoot. Hopefully for the good.

I can spout all day about my vision for the sport which is what you challenged me to post. Look up the word "vision" and see what it means. Nobdy suggestedv it didn't need financing. SL needs financing also but the leaders of it have vision even if they can't afford it.




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