271 replies to this topic

[Futtocks]

Whilst an accelerating factor, I doubt that this is the main reason for the languages decline. I personally think that anywhere where people speak 2 languages, that the dominant language will eventually win out.

Every Welsh person will need to be able to speak English to get on in life and this is increasingly the case. The same is not true for Welsh. As a teacher I'm skeptical of the ability of schools to properly teach somebody a language. For people to learn Welsh it will need to be passed on to the next generation and no matter how fervent the parents, you will never get 100% of the next generation speaking it. Some will get out of practise and some will actively not want to speak it. They will all learn English.

The same is true in Ireland. The government has gone to great lengths to preserve the language through Gaeltacht areas but this has had little effect and the Gaeltacht reduces all the time. I actually think it is a hindrance to Ireland as Gaelic is the official language of Government and everything has to translated into both (even in the North) costing money and time when everybody realistically can read the English version.

I don't mean this to sound patronising, I like regional languages and suspect if I spoke one that I would be a most fervent advocate of preserving the language. However, I think large scale attempts to preserve them are always going to fail. Sheer necessity and globalisation will lead to their eventual death.

Agreed on all of that. I seem to recall reading somewhere that Welsh is now the most subsidised language per capita in the world. Quite a turnaround in a short time, but likely to fail in the long run.

Edited by Futtocks, 22 February 2013 - 02:34 PM.

[gingerjon]

it's the local population. Specifically the locals from the last 15-20,000 years

It appears you are correct that they have higher incidences (http://www.msd.govt....t-p126-145.html) but it does seem the rate for the more recent arrivals is higher too (compared to what I've read for UK stats).

[MikeW]

Whilst an accelerating factor, I doubt that this is the main reason for the languages decline. I personally think that anywhere where people speak 2 languages, that the dominant language will eventually win out.

Every Welsh person will need to be able to speak English to get on in life and this is increasingly the case. The same is not true for Welsh. As a teacher I'm skeptical of the ability of schools to properly teach somebody a language. For people to learn Welsh it will need to be passed on to the next generation and no matter how fervent the parents, you will never get 100% of the next generation speaking it. Some will get out of practise and some will actively not want to speak it. They will all learn English.

The same is true in Ireland. The government has gone to great lengths to preserve the language through Gaeltacht areas but this has had little effect and the Gaeltacht reduces all the time. I actually think it is a hindrance to Ireland as Gaelic is the official language of Government and everything has to translated into both (even in the North) costing money and time when everybody realistically can read the English version.

I don't mean this to sound patronising, I like regional languages and suspect if I spoke one that I would be a most fervent advocate of preserving the language. However, I think large scale attempts to preserve them are always going to fail. Sheer necessity and globalisation will lead to their eventual death.

I'd go further and say i am an advocate for the death of probably 90% of langauages in the world. Maybe if I spoke Flemmish or Welsh or I'd feel differently, but what is the point in needing to know 2 languages because your main one holds you back in life? Part of (although not totally) the reason English speakers have such a bad reputation for learning foreign languages is that we just don't have to.

[Futtocks]

I'd go further and say i am an advocate for the death of probably 90% of langauages in the world. Maybe if I spoke Flemmish or Welsh or I'd feel differently, but what is the point in needing to know 2 languages because your main one holds you back in life? Part of (although not totally) the reason English speakers have such a bad reputation for learning foreign languages is that we just don't have to.

All English people are bilingual. We speak English, and if we aren't understood, we speak LOUD ENGLISH!

[MikeW]

All English people are bilingual. We speak English, and if we aren't understood, we speak LOUD ENGLISH!

With ever exaggerated arm waving

[gingerjon]

I'd go further and say i am an advocate for the death of probably 90% of langauages in the world. Maybe if I spoke Flemmish or Welsh or I'd feel differently, but what is the point in needing to know 2 languages because your main one holds you back in life? Part of (although not totally) the reason English speakers have such a bad reputation for learning foreign languages is that we just don't have to.

Flemish is Dutch though so you're in the company of 23 odd million other people and reasonably secure unless the Netherlands ceases to exist.

[Futtocks]

Flemish is Dutch though so you're in the company of 23 odd million other people and reasonably secure unless the Netherlands ceases to exist.

Keep watching those sea levels...

[MikeW]

Flemish is Dutch though so you're in the company of 23 odd million other people and reasonably secure unless the Netherlands ceases to exist.

Not good enough I'm afraid. If it's not Cantonese, Mandarin, English or Spanish then it's banned in my New World Order.

Edited by MikeW, 22 February 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[gingerjon]

Keep watching those sea levels...

Verrek!

[gingerjon]

Not good enough I'm afraid. If it's not Cantonese, Mandarin, English or Spanish then it's banned in my New World Order.

Hindi?

Also we need to merge Cantonese and Mandarin to create Super Chinese.

[MikeW]

Hindi?

Also we need to merge Cantonese and Mandarin to create Super Chinese.

I did think about an Indian language, and also merging Chinese. Maybe we could just merge every Indian/Pakistani/Bangaldeshi dialect together and tell them all to speak the one language. What could possibly go wrong?

Oh sod it. Everyone should just speak English, make it easier all round.

Edited by MikeW, 22 February 2013 - 03:03 PM.

[Shadow]

Hindi?

Also we need to merge Cantonese and Mandarin to create Super Chinese.

While we're at it let's merge Spanish and Portuguese to make Super Iberian with over 590 million speakers.

[Steve May]

Therefore the inability of an individual to speak English is not on it's own a problem for the greater society. Problem comes when a large influx of eccomomically strong immigrants with a single common tongue start to move into a country. Enlgand is far from that suitation, and the English languge is more than capable of adapting.

But parts of England are not far from that situation at all. Tower Hamlets, as referenced by GingerJon is an example.

Ghettos are not good.

[Steve May]

It appears you are correct that they have higher incidences (http://www.msd.govt....t-p126-145.html) but it does seem the rate for the more recent arrivals is higher too (compared to what I've read for UK stats).

It's the vowels. Noone can stand it for long. Sends 'em nuts.

[Steve May]

While we're at it let's merge Spanish and Portuguese to make Super Iberian with over 590 million speakers.

Spartuguese, surely?

[Steve May]

- Not every immigrant will speak the same languge hence no common tongue to take over

This is an interesting point.

In immigration dominated Hackney, I know of a primary school where the 300 kids speak something like 140 languages. By necessity, they have to speak English to each other because it is the lingua franca.

Whereas in other places I can point you to similar sized schools with the same number of kids with English as a second language. But every kid speaks the same first language. So they can talk to each other in that and don't need English to the same extent.

It's a very different thing.

[Bostik Bailey]

I suppose we could learn from the problem that Welsh faced and not cater for non English speakers. In a way I am coming round to your way of thinking, however in doing so a very vunerable section of society,who maybe are denied the chance to learn English by others who would want to oppress them, are futher marginalised.

It is a delicate balance.

[gingerjon]

It's the vowels. Noone can stand it for long. Sends 'em nuts.

sinds im nits, surely?

[fieldofclothofgold]

All English people are bilingual. We speak English, and if we aren't understood, we speak LOUD ENGLISH!

Where I live they all think I'm Irish and when I say no they tell me there grandfather was Scottish

[Bostik Bailey]

Where I live they all think I'm Irish and when I say no they tell me there grandfather was Scottish

Can I presume you have a highland accent, if so I am guilty of the same thing. We gave a student from Applecross who ( before introduction) I thought was Irish

A very soft Galiech accent