271 replies to this topic

[l'angelo mysterioso]

First of all, Christianity isn't a cult. Here is the definition of a cult from the Oxford Dictionaries online:

1 - A system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object, eg the cult of St Olaf
- A relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members
- A misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular thing
2 - A person or thing that is popular or fashionable among a particular group or section of society.

(http://oxforddiction...on/english/cult)

Christianity is a faith or a religion. It arrived in the British Isles almost 2000 years ago. Pagan practices were the norm in pre-Christian Britain (and of course continue on to the present day). The early Christians - who were either Roman or Celtic in tradition and practice - are responsible for laying the foundations of the Christian values to which your post refers. I think you are being deliberately obtuse in what you say but if you want to discover which values embedded in our culture were established by the Christian church then you won't have to look very far because they are numerous and pretty fundamental in some cases. One has recently been the subject of new legislation: marriage. Marriage is a set of values, marked by a tradition (the wedding ceremony), which was established in this country by the Christian church. There were commitment ceremonies which pre-dated the Christian marriage but they were different from the marriage values which have been applied in the British Isles for centuries.

On your point about other religions sharing the values of Christianity: only two could be said to share some of the values. The primary one is Judaism, which predates Christianity. The other is Islam, which is a younger religion than Christianity. However, while they do share values, they do not share all values and in some areas they are fundamentally different.

there are sects within the cult of christianity which don't share the same values.
what are these values anyway? I suspect they transecend the teachiungs of religious cults.

[Methven Hornet]

nobody has called you racist. If somebody has please show where and when. People have just disagreed with you that's all. Calling someone racist, or inded homophobic or sexist is something that shouldn't be done lightly. There is no evidence that posters on here view using these terms lightly.

There is nothing new qv about immigrant communities staying together-it has been discussed at some length on this vwery thread. Personally it's a topic from the point of view of local history that I find interesting.

What are these 'Christian values' that you speak of. Are they not present in other belief systems? There are all sorts of sects within the cult of christianity that believe all sorts of things-at least one has a history of polygamy. I'm an atheist where do I stand? Am I alien to this British culture you strive for? As for cannibalism which religion believes in that? what impact has it made upon British culture?

You criticise the pope and roman catholicism-fine by me. Last time I looked the sect of Roman catholicism is part of the sect of Christianity and was the religion of gthis country until the 16th century.

you have an issue regarding the speed of multiculturalism and its extent. How are you going to undo this? What sort of speed should it happen? What should the UK that you desire be like?

I would have thought the threat to Britain as a single nation waas the SNP, but never mind.

Not that 'Britain' has ever been a single nation, but the biggest threat to the political construct of 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland' has surely been successive British governments following a right-wing, neo-liberal agenda (something that I'm sure Dave Conway of CIVITAS has been comfortable with). They are the ones that have threatened core 'British' values of fairness, social cohesion, industry, protection of the old and sick, education free at the point of use, etc. All the SNP are doing is saying that to protect these core values - to protect the commonweal, as they would put it - Scotland needs to revert to being an independent state. If they succeed it will be more accurate to say that 'Britain' left Scotland.

But I think the nation ShotgunGold/Dave Conway of CIVITAS are talking about here is England rather than 'Britain', they just seem to be using the names interchangeably.

As ever, you make some other good points.

Edited by Methven Hornet, 25 February 2013 - 11:33 PM.

[JohnM]

I agree with pretty much all that.

On immigration I would add that I find it difficult to reconcile importing people into the country while there are 2.5 million people without a job and possibly another 1 million underemployed. A bit simplistic maybe, but I'd like to see a link between the quality of the economy (not just jobless but also benefit levels etc) and a limit on immigration. At times of high unemployment we should be utilising what we have rather than importing more. This of course would require some investment from industry as well as government; all to often companies are reluctant to invest in training and would rather import the 'finished article'. The Australians seem to have a decent system.

That's where housing comes in. Locally, there has been a huge influx of Eastern Europeans come to work long and hard hours in the fields for more than the minimum wage. Four can rent a decent house for £500 a month, earn and spend their money and pay their taxes. They are not taking anyone's jobs because, possibly, suitable workers in other parts of the country can't or won't move here.

I am not sure, either, if there is a match between the capabilities/location of the unemployed and the vacancies there are. A friend of mine runs a significant sized IBM manufacturing software reseller. They are winning large contract to put systems into manufacturing industry in the UK. Can they get consultants, system architects, analysts etc to implement these systems? Nope, even at salaries that would make your eyes water.

regarding my comment about illogical and woolly thinking people, i was referring to those who scorn education because it is difficult, waste the opportunities open to them, etc. Of course, there are those whom the education system has let down - or who let themselves down - and I know of a number of people who once they realise this, have done something about it once they realise.

[Methven Hornet]

I agree with pretty much all that.

On immigration I would add that I find it difficult to reconcile importing people into the country while there are 2.5 million people without a job and possibly another 1 million underemployed. A bit simplistic maybe, but I'd like to see a link between the quality of the economy (not just jobless but also benefit levels etc) and a limit on immigration. At times of high unemployment we should be utilising what we have rather than importing more. This of course would require some investment from industry as well as government; all to often companies are reluctant to invest in training and would rather import the 'finished article'. The Australians seem to have a decent system.

It does seem strange, but in the area I live in (south-west Perthshire), there are many jobs that just do not attract locals. My wife worked at a local independent boarding school a few miles up the road a few years ago, but she was one of only a handful from the local area in the catering department. The site is remote from the majority of job-seekers, and the pay was so low that it wasn't feasible for many to travel to the site. The catering manager took the easy option and recruited men from Spain and women from Sweden (why that split I never found out), and accommodation was provided on site (again, most locals would not have wanted, or may not have been able, to stay overnight).

Similarly, in the hotel sector, and we do have some large hotel complexes in the region, the local area just cannot meet the demand for workers. Many locals, of course, do work for the likes of Gleneagles and the Hydro in Crieff, but a large proportion of the staff are from Europe (the east, especially) and beyond. It is a similar situation with domestic staff too.

Another industry in the area is soft fruit - strawberries and raspberries - and I think it is safe to say that, in the modern era, that the sector would not exist without migrant labour. It was the case a few years ago, and I see no reason that the same does not apply today, that soft fruit growers were given an exemption from the minimum wage regulations. That means eastern Europeans, as few others would accept the pay - and conditions.

Could we make the unemployed fit into these roles? Well, soft fruit picking was once done by locals, but it was very much a casual thing (because of the picking season). It was almost a rite of passage for young blokes in the area to go off picking rasps in the summer, or tattie-picking in the first two weeks of October (the schools still have a fortnight off for half-term at that time of the year), but I think growers now want the reliability of a contracted workforce (and an inexpensive one at that).

In the hotel sector, like many other areas of British industry, the employers no longer seem willing to put youngsters through proper apprentice or training schemes, preferring to recruit the finished article - and that means trained workers from other countries. In fact, a similar scenario gave me my first experience of Asian Muslim immigrants in the late sixties/early seventies. Walking to school in Heywood, Lancashire, I would see dozens of such people coming off the nightshift at the local textile mill and waiting for the bus to take them home to Rochdale. To make maximum use of their capital investment, the mill owners had to keep the machinery working constantly, meaning a three-shift system. As they struggled to find enough staff for the night-shift, the firms found the solution in countries like Pakistan.

The needs of employers drove the flow of migrants then, and little has changed.

[Methven Hornet]

That's where housing comes in. Locally, there has been a huge influx of Eastern Europeans come to work long and hard hours in the fields for more than the minimum wage. Four can rent a decent house for £500 a month, earn and spend their money and pay their taxes. They are not taking anyone's jobs because, possibly, suitable workers in other parts of the country can't or won't move here.

I am not sure, either, if there is a match between the capabilities/location of the unemployed and the vacancies there are. A friend of mine runs a significant sized IBM manufacturing software reseller. They are winning large contract to put systems into manufacturing industry in the UK. Can they get consultants, system architects, analysts etc to implement these systems? Nope, even at salaries that would make your eyes water.

regarding my comment about illogical and woolly thinking people, i was referring to those who scorn education because it is difficult, waste the opportunities open to them, etc. Of course, there are those whom the education system has let down - or who let themselves down - and I know of a number of people who once they realise this, have done something about it once they realise.

Is that what they call tautology, or is it simply a repetition of the same words to reinforce the point?

[gingerjon]

Not that 'Britain' has ever been a single nation, but the biggest threat to the political construct of 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland' has surely been successive British governments following a right-wing, neo-liberal agenda (something that I'm sure Dave Conway of CIVITAS has been comfortable with). They are the ones that have threatened core 'British' values of fairness, social cohesion, industry, protection of the old and sick, education free at the point of use, etc. All the SNP are doing is saying that to protect these core values - to protect the commonweal, as they would put it - Scotland needs to revert to being an independent state. If they succeed it will be more accurate to say that 'Britain' left Scotland.

But I think the nation ShotgunGold/Dave Conway of CIVITAS are talking about here is England rather than 'Britain', they just seem to be using the names interchangeably.

As ever, you make some other good points.

To be honest, though, even the idea of "Britain" having a tradition of "fairness, social cohesion, industry, protection of the old and sick, education free at the point of use, etc" dates from our foundation myths of 1945.

[JohnM]

Is that what they call tautology, or is it simply a repetition of the same words to reinforce the point?

see here

[JohnM]

It does seem strange, but in the area I live in (south-west Perthshire), there are many jobs that just do not attract locals. My wife worked at a local independent boarding school a few miles up the road a few years ago, but she was one of only a handful from the local area in the catering department. The site is remote from the majority of job-seekers, and the pay was so low that it wasn't feasible for many to travel to the site. The catering manager took the easy option and recruited men from Spain and women from Sweden (why that split I never found out), and accommodation was provided on site (again, most locals would not have wanted, or may not have been able, to stay overnight).

Similarly, in the hotel sector, and we do have some large hotel complexes in the region, the local area just cannot meet the demand for workers. Many locals, of course, do work for the likes of Gleneagles and the Hydro in Crieff, but a large proportion of the staff are from Europe (the east, especially) and beyond. It is a similar situation with domestic staff too.

Another industry in the area is soft fruit - strawberries and raspberries - and I think it is safe to say that, in the modern era, that the sector would not exist without migrant labour. It was the case a few years ago, and I see no reason that the same does not apply today, that soft fruit growers were given an exemption from the minimum wage regulations. That means eastern Europeans, as few others would accept the pay - and conditions.

Could we make the unemployed fit into these roles? Well, soft fruit picking was once done by locals, but it was very much a casual thing (because of the picking season). It was almost a rite of passage for young blokes in the area to go off picking rasps in the summer, or tattie-picking in the first two weeks of October (the schools still have a fortnight off for half-term at that time of the year), but I think growers now want the reliability of a contracted workforce (and an inexpensive one at that).

In the hotel sector, like many other areas of British industry, the employers no longer seem willing to put youngsters through proper apprentice or training schemes, preferring to recruit the finished article - and that means trained workers from other countries. In fact, a similar scenario gave me my first experience of Asian Muslim immigrants in the late sixties/early seventies. Walking to school in Heywood, Lancashire, I would see dozens of such people coming off the nightshift at the local textile mill and waiting for the bus to take them home to Rochdale. To make maximum use of their capital investment, the mill owners had to keep the machinery working constantly, meaning a three-shift system. As they struggled to find enough staff for the night-shift, the firms found the solution in countries like Pakistan.

The needs of employers drove the flow of migrants then, and little has changed.

independent boarding school? How could she do such a thing given your opinion ( misguided, it is true) of "successful British governments following a right-wing, neo-liberal agenda"..unless she was engaged in subverting these well-heeled toffs.

[JohnM]

To be honest, though, even the idea of "Britain" having a tradition of "fairness, social cohesion, industry, protection of the old and sick, education free at the point of use, etc" dates from our foundation myths of 1945.

hmm. its all relative, though 1945 was 68 years ago. See New Lanark, Quarry Bank Mill. Letchworth Garden City, Port Sunlight etc.

[Futtocks]

1. Go back as far as you like and you'll find someone complaining about the detrimental effects of mass immigration.

And, thankfully less often, people trying to do something about it - Edward I with his purges and mass executions of Jews, for instance.

[Futtocks]

First of all, Christianity isn't a cult.

No; it's a Jewish splinter group.

[Saintslass]

No; it's a Jewish splinter group.

That would be more accurate!

[WearyRhino]

Racism is, of course, saying that one race is superior to another.

No it isn't.

[Methven Hornet]

To be honest, though, even the idea of "Britain" having a tradition of "fairness, social cohesion, industry, protection of the old and sick, education free at the point of use, etc" dates from our foundation myths of 1945.

I know, but it makes for good rhetoric.

And, since no one else is having a stab at what values a monocultural Britain should have, I thought I throw in a few.

[Methven Hornet]

independent boarding school? How could she do such a thing given your opinion ( misguided, it is true) of "successful British governments following a right-wing, neo-liberal agenda"..unless she was engaged in subverting these well-heeled toffs.

Bloody hell John, I married her, I didn't take ownership of her conscience and control of her decision making powers. An opportunity arose for running a tuck-shop for the children of a few well-heeled toffs, she needed a part-time job during school hours, so it was a perfect match.

And, besides which, it is probably true that servants make the bloodiest revolutionaries!

[Ex-Kirkholt]

independent boarding school? How could she do such a thing given your opinion ( misguided, it is true) of "successful British governments following a right-wing, neo-liberal agenda"..unless she was engaged in subverting these well-heeled toffs.

He always was aspirational...

[Methven Hornet]

He always was aspirational...

Aspirational? Being on the catering staff of such an establishment must make you a candidate for the lowest of the low in employment terms.

[Severus]

No it isn't.

He just doesn't get it.

[WearyRhino]

He just doesn't get it.

Absolutely. To be honest that was the only one of the many points in his diatribe I could be bothered to tackle. I haven't seen anything that concertedly right wing, angry and bonkers for many a year. Should have been written in green text.

Edited by WearyRhino, 26 February 2013 - 11:23 AM.

[JohnM]

Aspirational? Being on the catering staff of such an establishment must make you a candidate for the lowest of the low in employment terms.

I've seen Downton Abbey. I know how you " below stairs" types do it. I bet she has some stories to tell! Adulterating the sherbet dips?

Edited by JohnM, 26 February 2013 - 11:21 AM.