233 replies to this topic

[The Parksider]

Top post. Exactly right.

It's not right. Featherstone have been backed by businessmen.

Hunslet, York, Rochdale, Bramley etc only have supporters trusts.

They all work hard but some have money to invest, some only have the money to pay the basic bills.

Stand on your own two feet and deal with these points if you will?

[keighley]

Why invite me to give you my actual position AFTER you have made two criticisms of my position?

Calm down and let's have a reasoned debate.

They've always strived to attract fans from all over and certainly from Leeds, as early as the folding of Holbeck and Leeds Parish Church fans from those areas have been attracted to Hunslet and if Leeds had continued to be a second division club as they were around that time then today the south Leeds Stadium may well be on Albert Goldthorpe Way rather than John Charles way and may have 20,000 capacity rather than a 2,000 capacity.

I do not understand you trying to box the club into either Hunslet boundaries or Leeds boundaries?

All clubs will reach out to anyone anywhere to come and support them.

Our problem is obvious. When you say to Leeds people come and watch Hunslet they say "No thanks we watch Leeds". When we say to Hunslet people "come and watch your club your from Hunslet" they say "No I am not from Hunslet".

There is a constituency for us to attract fans but we have nothing to attract them with playing amateurs in CC1 and certainly not when we are up against Leeds.

I am puzzled why you don't get this???

It's not a matter of me not getting it. On the one hand you claim Hunslet is a Leeds club reaching out to all inhabitants of Leeds and on the other hand you claim they represent only Hunslet, an area with all the problems relating to supporting a club in that location.

I didn't box them in. You put two different boxes on display. That is why I have called for you to clarify your position which you have failed to do.

At present, and, as long as they remain Leeds A, it dosn't matter which box Hunslet are in as Leeds will support them and bail them out for so long as it suits them.

If they ever were to become independent again and want to progress as a club then they will have to tick the " Support from the whole of Leeds" box.

They would need a huge investment base, an upgrading of South Leeds stadium, some serious marketing, sucess on the playing field and a large increase in spectator support.

If all of those could be achieved, then Hunslet could rejoin the top ecehlons. Leeds is big enough for two SL clubs.

[The Parksider]

1. On the other hand you claim they represent only Hunslet, an area with all the problems relating to supporting a club in that location.

2. If they ever were to become independent again and want to progress as a club then they will have to tick the " Support from the whole of Leeds" box.They would need a huge investment base, an upgrading of South Leeds stadium, some serious marketing, sucess on the playing field and a large increase in spectator support.

If all of those could be achieved, then Hunslet could rejoin the top ecehlons. Leeds is big enough for two SL clubs.

1. No you misunderstand. The bulk of the Hunslet support in the fifties was from East Leeds, Holbeck and Hunslet. As an area Hunslet was decimated population wise, and I often explain this to people including you. I may have misled you by not also adding that inner east leeds and Holbeck were also decimated too.

2. But all of those cannot be achieved.

Leeds is not big enough for two Superleague clubs anyway. Leeds have boosted ARL around the city, and captured the market for paying fans and sponsors by winning Superleague ad Nauseum.

last year Leeds/Hunslet had 15,000 paying fans.

If there were two SL clubs they'd only have 7,500 each and would both be uncompetitive and lose money hand over fist.

I find it incredible that you said that in the face of the facts?

[keighley]

It's not right. Featherstone have been backed by businessmen.

Hunslet, York, Rochdale, Bramley etc only have supporters trusts.

They all work hard but some have money to invest, some only have the money to pay the basic bills.

Stand on your own two feet and deal with these points if you will?

And with the exception of Bramley, who are long gone from the semi pro ranks, they all were paying their bills and standing as tall as they could.

Now they are appendages of SL clubs and I see no more reason for them to be able to pay their bills than when they were independent. The crowds are not increasing and I think will drop even further. Where is the financial reward for comitting sporting hari kari. i see no benefits.

Hunslet are not alone either. I can see the writing on the wall for Keighley. I don't see Castleford bailing them out. Swinton have lost their ground and fan base and are now warrington A. They may as well play out of HJH stadium. Whitehaven look no stronger from their link up and South Wales are arguably worse on the field with shrinking crowds.

On the other hand, Halifax look good, Featherstone also, Leigh just got 15,000 from Lisa, Sheffield are excelling again and with no apparent financial problems .Crusaders are getting decent crowds and good results so far. These are all independent clubs.

So why all the almighty rush to this A team concept. I suggest it's soley for the benefit of profligate SL clubs and the benefits to championship clubs are minimal and, in the area of drive and ambition, positively regressive.

[MikeFletchersBarmyArmy]

1. No you misunderstand. The bulk of the Hunslet support in the fifties was from East Leeds, Holbeck and Hunslet. As an area Hunslet was decimated population wise, and I often explain this to people including you. I may have misled you by not also adding that inner east leeds and Holbeck were also decimated too.

2. But all of those cannot be achieved.

Leeds is not big enough for two Superleague clubs anyway. Leeds have boosted ARL around the city, and captured the market for paying fans and sponsors by winning Superleague ad Nauseum.

last year Leeds/Hunslet had 15,000 paying fans.

If there were two SL clubs they'd only have 7,500 each and would both be uncompetitive and lose money hand over fist.

I find it incredible that you said that in the face of the facts?

7500 supporters is more than the majority of the super league clubs get. However as of today, is there now more RL supporters in the city of Leeds than there has been throughout the history of RL?

Is it better for a city to a have a bigger range in supporters from one club to the other, having a greater divide from the rich to the poor, than a city having a greater mean/average in suppporters?

[keighley]

1. No you misunderstand. The bulk of the Hunslet support in the fifties was from East Leeds, Holbeck and Hunslet. As an area Hunslet was decimated population wise, and I often explain this to people including you. I may have misled you by not also adding that inner east leeds and Holbeck were also decimated too.

2. But all of those cannot be achieved.

Leeds is not big enough for two Superleague clubs anyway. Leeds have boosted ARL around the city, and captured the market for paying fans and sponsors by winning Superleague ad Nauseum.

last year Leeds/Hunslet had 15,000 paying fans.

If there were two SL clubs they'd only have 7,500 each and would both be uncompetitive and lose money hand over fist.

I find it incredible that you said that in the face of the facts?

There would have to be a breakdown of Leeds support to find out where the majority originate from. Without that the points you make about the drop to 7,500 each cannot realistically be debated.

For instance, if it were shown that most support for Leeds comes from the Northern Leeds and its suburbs, then there is a vacuum in Southern leeds and its hinterlands for Hunslet to exploit for fans to raise their attendances without dramatically reducing those at Headingley.

In the Wakefield Metro area for instance, Wakefield have raised their crowds to around the 8,000 average from 4,000 some short years ago. This should then result in Castleford and Featherstone suffering dramatic reductions but, no, Featherstone are getting well over 2000, up from 1200, and Castleford, despite poor results on the field are maintaining a 5 to 6000 average. If the 4,000 gain at Wakefield were to result in declining gates at Castleford then Castleford should be down to 2 or 3,000 averages.

Similarly in Hull, Hull KR are in the 7 to 8,000 range up from around a 1,000. This should mean that Hull FC should lose 7,000 from their average. This has not happened.

Given that Leeds is a large city compared to those two areas, and has a strong history in RL, I cannot believe that there is not the potential for two well supported SL clubs in the City. It will probably never happen, certainly not so long as Hunslet remain Leeds A, but if the vast obstacles standing in the way of Hunslet were able to be overcome, I see no reason why your hypothesis that two SL clubs in Leeds would result in 7,500 fans at each, would be proven.

[The Parksider]

So why all the almighty rush to this A team concept. I suggest it's soley for the benefit of profligate SL clubs and the benefits to championship clubs are minimal and, in the area of drive and ambition, positively regressive.

For the millionth time it gets us a decent team on the pitch AND reduces the wages bill.

Alternative death!

[The Parksider]

If it were shown that most support for Leeds comes from the Northern Leeds and its suburbs, then there is a vacuum in Southern leeds and its hinterlands for Hunslet to exploit for fans to raise their attendances without dramatically reducing those at Headingley.
I see no reason why your hypothesis that two SL clubs in Leeds would result in 7,500 fans at each, would be proven.

Given that Leeds is a large city compared to those two areas, and has a strong history in RL, I cannot believe that there is not the potential for two well supported SL clubs in the City.

It's an excellent point when HKR were down to 1,000 their resurgence took them back up to nearly 8,000.

I agree that poorly supported clubs that used to be well supported have "latent" support that may return.

But Hunslet have never been well supported for over fifty years, and you will maybe accept my opinion on this because I live amongst both sets of fans, that there aren't many fans sitting at home waiting for Hunslet to get into Superleague.

When the club qualified in 2000 only 5700 turned up to the Grand Final which was IN Leeds and there were many Dewsbury and neutral fans in the sparse crowd. In contrast HKR's grand final attracted thousands of HKR fans who travelled all the way to Warrington to see them qualify for promotion to SL.

Even if we did half as well as HKR we'd only be on 4,000 crowds.

And let's stick on HKR because the fact is Hull can't financially support two clubs, HKR have been losing millions. Hull are running up an overdraft.

Lets go on to Widnes - their 3700 CC support compares to Hunslets 490.

Up into SL they went and their support went up 60%.

For Hunslet to get to 10,000 fans so they could compete in SL their fan base would have to rise by 2000%.

I apologise for the 7500 thing, it was daft, but so was the idea that Hunslet can find millions and millions and then get in SL and compete.

In reality If we got in SL (which is a fantasy) we may get something like 3000 and most of them would be off the back of away fans.

[keighley]

"I apologise for the 7500 thing, it was daft, but so was the idea that Hunslet can find millions and millions and then get in SL and compete.

In reality If we got in SL (which is a fantasy) we may get something like 3000 and most of them would be off the back of away fans. "

I agree we are approaching fantasy here, but the template might be Salford. Two months ago, it looked like the end for them. The , suddenly, new money, stadium rent renegotiations, bids for Sam Tomkins. Who knew.

This is a work in progress, but if Dr Koukash's money and business acumen result in Salford being a top tier team and with 10,000 in the SCS every home game, then there is the possibility.

Leeds is a large, prosperous City. Who knows what Dr Koukash's there are lurking in the wings. To reminiss, if Hunslet had been allowed in SL on the back of an enlarged SLS, I have no doubt they would have been around 4,000. They were averaging 2000 in the lower division on the back of successful promotion campaign. With the right backing and management i am sure they coud have pushed their average even higher in subsequent seasons. sadly, it was not to be.

That is where money backing and sucess on the field and marketing and promotion would have to come to the fore. A new fan base would have to be created. It can be done. the crusaders managed 3 to 4, 000 from nothing in there season in SL. Even Bradford came from 1,000 to 10,000 since 1963.

Huddersfield also were in the less than a thousand league at one point.

As you also know, the 10,000 average thing for survival is not necessarily required. Check out the vast majority of the SL at present. It can be done on lower thresholds.

Now before you go off on a fantasy, dreamer rant. I agree that this is true. It is, however, not inconceivable. Wakefield, Hull KR,, Huddersfield and Catalans have proven so. As always money is the key and recent years have shown that investors arise from the most unlikey sources iot of the blue. never say never.

[barrowraiderskid]

It's an excellent point when HKR were down to 1,000 their resurgence took them back up to nearly 8,000.

I agree that poorly supported clubs that used to be well supported have "latent" support that may return.

But Hunslet have never been well supported for over fifty years, and you will maybe accept my opinion on this because I live amongst both sets of fans, that there aren't many fans sitting at home waiting for Hunslet to get into Superleague.

When the club qualified in 2000 only 5700 turned up to the Grand Final which was IN Leeds and there were many Dewsbury and neutral fans in the sparse crowd. In contrast HKR's grand final attracted thousands of HKR fans who travelled all the way to Warrington to see them qualify for promotion to SL.

Even if we did half as well as HKR we'd only be on 4,000 crowds.

And let's stick on HKR because the fact is Hull can't financially support two clubs, HKR have been losing millions. Hull are running up an overdraft.

Lets go on to Widnes - their 3700 CC support compares to Hunslets 490.

Up into SL they went and their support went up 60%.

For Hunslet to get to 10,000 fans so they could compete in SL their fan base would have to rise by 2000%.

I apologise for the 7500 thing, it was daft, but so was the idea that Hunslet can find millions and millions and then get in SL and compete.

In reality If we got in SL (which is a fantasy) we may get something like 3000 and most of them would be off the back of away fans.

The figures which Hunslet are needing for SL aren't really relevant. I think everyone associated with Hunslet has accepted that they won't get into SL with the RL mega club Leeds existing. But why does that mean they can't survive in the Championship by themselves? If not then why can't they survive in CC1? The majority of Hunslets fans are likely to be loyal to the club as if they were the general glory hungry sports fan they would of supported Leeds, so if they dropped into the CC1 then I don't see what the problem would be. I can't imagine Hunslets current fans only attending on the basis of a prospect in SL. What reason must they be at the club, there must be a reason?

I can see why Hunslet would take the partnership but i don't personally think they would have to if they wanted to exist.

[The Parksider]

I agree we are approaching fantasy here, but the template might be Salford. Two months ago, it looked like the end for them, but if Dr Koukash's money and business acumen result in Salford being a top tier team and with 10,000 in the SCS every home game, then there is the possibility.

Leeds is a large, prosperous City. Who knows what Dr Koukash's there are lurking in the wings. T

Wakefield, Hull KR,, Huddersfield and Catalans have proven so. As always money is the key and recent years have shown that investors arise from the most unlikey sources iot of the blue. never say never.

Salford, Wakefield Huddersfield and Catalans didn't have a massive Superleague success story already in their towns and cities.

HKR had a massive latent support.

It's different in Hunslet, you know it is.

It's not a matter of never say never. Blackpool Hawk has a club to run in the here and now.

Don't ask him to stay independant in case something turns up.

[The Parksider]

The figures which Hunslet are needing for SL aren't really relevant. I think everyone associated with Hunslet has accepted that they won't get into SL with the RL mega club Leeds existing. But why does that mean they can't survive in the Championship by themselves? If not then why can't they survive in CC1? The majority of Hunslets fans are likely to be loyal to the club as if they were the general glory hungry sports fan they would of supported Leeds, so if they dropped into the CC1 then I don't see what the problem would be. I can't imagine Hunslets current fans only attending on the basis of a prospect in SL. What reason must they be at the club, there must be a reason?

I can see why Hunslet would take the partnership but i don't personally think they would have to if they wanted to exist.

Leigh are one of the bigger clubs in the division. They are having problems with an ageing and declining fan base, and luckily their supporters and sponsors have just delivered £71,000. They are a much bigger club than us. We are now run by supporters who don't have that sort of money.

Leigh's problems include gates dipping but those gates are still over THREE TIMES our gates. On our gates last year we had enough money to pay a team who could only win two games and avoided relegation because there was no relegation.

This year Blackpool Hawk had even less money for wages.

So I am afraid he has decided that the club were simply not going to compete in the Championship and were at grave risk of going down.

Blackpool Hawk then had to look at a 2014 fixture list against CC1 clubs. The best fixture we could have in that division is oldham. Maybe we'd get 400? But against the non traditional sides we would be looking at 250 and I would fear 150 for Gloucester.

That would leave us on crowds of 250 which is going on for half of what we get now.

Going down still leaves us with travel expenses, ground rent and other bills that do not reduce because you drop a division.

The playing budget would be miniscule, and it was in the past. The result of that is you have to play amateurs, and when we did this we came bottom of CC1. Even the staunchest of fans were walking away then and I certainly did at the time. I'm a big RL fan but i'm not going to watch amateurs playing every week, I'd seriously be better going to Hunslet Warriors.

And that is the point, in CC1 we risk sinking lower than the local amateur club.

I trust Blackpool Hawk implicitly a man of great integrity, when he says Hunslet won't survive CC1 I know he means it. He doesn't have to spell it out for me.

Skolars are different, Crusaders are different all clubs are different and we cannot attract fans with Leeds up the road, and we can't satisfy our own fans fielding amateur players in fixtures like Hemel, Oxford and Gloucester with respect to them.

Just imagine you had had a top division side in Furness this last 50 years, let's say "Furness Firecrackers" were would your club be today?

[noname6]

Yes... it was closer to £80k.

AGAIN YOURE MISTAKEN!!! im not having a dig at Hunslet for breaking any rules, im having a dig for becoming a reserve team. Keep up son.

leeds didn't give you anywhere near 80K.
fev fans are even more deluded than i thought if you really believe you got anywhere near that figure

[l'angelo mysterioso]

leeds didn't give you anywhere near 80K.
fev fans are even more deluded than i thought if you really believe you got anywhere near that figure

it was £70, 000

'fev fans deluded' is a little different to 'a fev fan somewhat mistaken'.