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HUGO CHAVEZ hero, villain, or a bit of both?


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42 replies to this topic

#1 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 11:43 AM

his obit on here sparked a bit of discussion,

perhaps here is the place to continue it.
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#2 Futtocks

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:05 PM

A little from column A, a little from column B. Part idealist, part opportunist.

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#3 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:33 PM

Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?

 

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#4 gingerjon

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:42 PM

Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?


Owen Jones (so you may automatically not trust it) in the Independent
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#5 Phil

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:52 PM

Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?


well, he was elected, resisted a right wing coup and, as Jones says lifted the Venezuelan masses out of grinding povery. Not a bad start.
"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#6 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:57 PM

Owen Jones (so you may automatically not trust it) in the Independent


Hmmm.

I think he's grossly mismanaged some serious wealth his country has due to their petrol, so it doesn't surprise me that some Venezuelans have 'got rich' under his rule. I think the country will be found to be the economic basket case it's always been, but on a much bigger scale.

He has concentrated on cult of personality, media control and populist propaganda with ridiculous anti-everyone statements designed to antagonise but which his uninformed domestic audience lapped up, so it doesn't surprise me that he "won" 'democratic' elections.

Ive never really bought into the nowhere-near -as-bad-as-some-of-the-crooks-who-were-there-before-him argument, but that may well be true. I on't know enough about it.

 

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#7 JohnM

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:58 PM

Owen Jones (so you may automatically not trust it) in the Independent



Quite so. I think Jones would make an ideal replacement for Chavez and I would willingly contribute towards buying the gobby and obnoxious ###### a one-way ticket to Venezuelan oblivion. Not that I hold a strong opinion, though. :lol:

#8 Phil

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:11 PM

Another awful tinpot dictator. What possible redeeming qualities could anyone find in him?

Ive never really bought into the nowhere-near -as-bad-as-some-of-the-crooks-who-were-there-before-him argument, but that may well be true. I on't know enough about it.


But enough to make blanket condemnation eh?
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#9 Futtocks

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 01:14 PM

Ive never really bought into the nowhere-near -as-bad-as-some-of-the-crooks-who-were-there-before-him argument, but that may well be true. I on't know enough about it.


One of his predecessors, rather living up to the Latin American 'El Presidente' stereotype, at least sartorially.

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#10 JohnM

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 02:20 PM

The Venezuela Violence Observatory (OVV) says violent crime has risen steadily in Venezuela since 1999 when President Chavez took office. In that year only 4,550 murders were registered. in 2011, at least 19,336 people have been killed this year, an average of 53 a day. see http://www.bbc.co.uk...merica-16349118

#11 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 03:13 PM

An article written about Chavez in 2010 by Christopher Hitchens that appears to suggest that Chavez believed he was the reincarnation of Simon Bolivar (or perhaps Bolivar was his father), after digging up his remains.

http://www.slate.com...oss.single.html

#12 Northern Sol

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:14 PM

well, he was elected, resisted a right wing coup


Of course he was elected, he controls the media and created the constitution that governs the elections. It would be hard to lose under such circumstances.

, as Jones says lifted the Venezuelan masses out of grinding povery. Not a bad start.


Indeed he did but more could have been achieved. He is not the worst leader Venezuela have ever had but it is hardly a hero for not squandering all of Venezuela's vast oil wealth on funding terrorist organisations in Colombia.

#13 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:38 PM

But enough to make blanket condemnation eh?


I know plenty enough about Hugo himself. There is always a lot of coverage in Spain about South American affairs. Im less au fait with what came before, which it what I was referring to in your selective quote, but that's hardly vital to having a valid opinion on Hugo.

 

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#14 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 07:42 PM

Chavez's 'democratically elected' hand-picked successor Maduro has been expounding his theory on how the cancer was caused by the enemies of Chavez (ie the US). It'd be funny if it wasn't. God help 'em .

 

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#15 Johnoco

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:11 PM

I can't claim to know much about him or Venezuela really but I heard Ken 'red ken' Livingstone claiming he was great because he gave Londoners a load of cheap petrol or something (to keep fares down) and if he's involved, there will be corruption and back scratching aplenty...so based on such a flimsy theory I think he was bent.

#16 Phil

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:12 PM

Of course he was elected, he controls the media and created the constitution that governs the elections. It would be hard to lose under such circumstances.



Indeed he did but more could have been achieved. He is not the worst leader Venezuela have ever had but it is hardly a hero for not squandering all of Venezuela's vast oil wealth on funding terrorist organisations in Colombia.


going back to the OP I actually think a bit of both but I certainly defend his working to improve the conditions of the poor, who wouldn't?
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#17 marklaspalmas

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

I certainly defend his working to improve the conditions of the poor, who wouldn't?


No-one, but Chavez didn't, despite his claims. His nationalisation policy will prove disasterous, and a lot of the wealth created from petrol has been badly spent.

I know some people want to break this down into a left wing/right wing thing, but that makes no difference to me. I did actually think of a redeeming feature. He wasn't as bad as that utter SOB Pinochet.

 

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#18 slowdive

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:24 PM

Things are never really as simple as good or bad are they. I can't help wondering whether his courting of the poor in Venezuala was as much about gaining the popular vote as it was about any deeply held convictions. I also suspect it's fairly difficult to become leader of a country without being touched by a heavy dose of meglomania. But hey at least he did try and focus on the poor which is more than can be said for many Latin American politicians. i wonder whether one of his most important legacies was the impact his policies and approach had on neighbouring countries in Latin America. There has been a shift to the left amongst many countries in that region and I think he was probably in the vanguard of that. So whether he was a tool or not it wasn't all bad!
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#19 Phil

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:37 PM

Actually the more I read about him the more I like him. his heart was certainly in the right place.

Free education from daycare to university
5th in the world per capita university students
5th happiest population in the world
reduced poverty by 44%
reduced food imports by 60%
Reduced child mortality by 50%

Edited by Phil, 06 March 2013 - 08:47 PM.

"Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin

#20 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 08:42 PM

Chavez's 'democratically elected' hand-picked successor Maduro has been expounding his theory on how the cancer was caused by the enemies of Chavez (ie the US). It'd be funny if it wasn't. God help 'em .


perhaps he'd read about the various wys the CIA tried to kill Castro and took it from there.
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