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Nigel Wood- London must improve


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#181 keighley

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

but it isn't strong. It is minority sport in its own' heartlands'. I a not dissing 'the heartlands', far from it. I do have a distatste for the stereotype that it rpresents, since it limits thesports percievedavailability, and well I just can't do wit thatb stuff and the people who purvey it. I'm just dismayed at the situaion as a whole. Which other team prt in England has a 'heartlands'.

Retreating to those heartlands- a situation some see as a good thin,g fills mewith dread


Rugby Union, anything south of Nottingham.

#182 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:54 AM

It's a good thing in terms of some people's personal agenda.

You take London and Catalans out of Superleague and you then have to replace them with....well there you go.

Talking of personal agendas, Northern Sol, stop posting messages to me personally attacking me, your on ignore and your not going to get an answer. We fundamentally disagree on most things let's leave it at that.


No.

You refer to me in your posts dispute having me on ignore and even reply to some points I made.

You have made some very arrogant and dismissive posts in the past claiming that "flatties" have their heads in the sand refusing to see the writing on the wall. Every one of your predictions was wrong, some humble pie would be in order. Instead you continue to behave in exactly the same way. I'm merely exposing what you have said before and how it was proved wrong and the many cases where you have contradicted yourself.

Perhaps you could consider a change in posting style. If you would merely stick to what is known, not insult people as inbred whippet keepers living in terraced houses that hate southerners, not put words into people's mouths, talk about "hidden agendas" etc then I would not feel the need to point out what you have posted in the past.

#183 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 09:57 AM

Last year Crusaders crowds were 927.

That beat the crowds of York, Swinton, Hunslet, Workington, Whitehaven, Doncaster, Oldham and Rochdale.

London Skolars had bigger crowds than Hunslet!


Again this contradicts your claims that "you can't build in the championship". If Skolars got bigger crowds than Hunslet and Crusaders got decent (for this level) crowds then this is because their support has grown despite not being a SL side. Time to acknowledge it.

#184 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:01 AM

There would, but its heartlands would be in Australia. Now that's an expansion effort that took off good style.


I agree that RL would still be played in Aus even if it had died out over here decades ago but it only got set-up over there because it was a success over here.

#185 tonyXIII

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:12 AM

I agree with your synopsis but people can also pick up new sports in new areas. I was in a sports bar yesterday watching the 6 nations and in a small corner were a group of Dominican Republic citizens going wild watching the Dominican Republic play Puerto Rico in the World Baseball classic aka the baseball world cup. In their previous game they knocked off the USA. The two time defending champions are Japan. Teams from Australia, Holland, Italy and many South American countries as well as Canada, Korea and China are in this tournament.

The USA invented modern baseball and it was played there alone for ,many decades but the spread of the game is growing. Japanese baseball is a hugely succesful fully pro league with huge stadia jammed with huge crowds.

I don't see that RL can't spread and develop in the same way and seems to be slowly doing so. Sports can spread to new areas successfully. Rugby ( League nor Union) has done so int the past. The game was originally an England only sport.


You are right, sports can expand. How else did soccer become so globally dominant? It is played (possibly even professionally?) in just about every country on the planet.

Where I think you might need to be cautious is with the time scale.

Baseball, for example, has been played professionally in Japan for decades. I suspect since the end of WW2, but I'm not sure. The Caribbean has also been home to very high-level baseball competitions for decades. Cuba is the biggest example, but the Dominican Republic has also been baseball mad for a very long time. I don't want to wiki this (I'm lazy) but I suspect that those Caribbean islands which fell under the influence of the USA took up baseball, while those that fell under the influence of the UK took up cricket. I suspect that the 'social colonisation' preceded the sporting one and, in a sense, created the fertile ground into which the sport rooted itself more easily.

Sorry for the poncy way I've expressed that, but I'm sure you'll get my drift.

Edited by tonyXIII, 17 March 2013 - 10:12 AM.

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#186 keighley

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:26 AM

You are right, sports can expand. How else did soccer become so globally dominant? It is played (possibly even professionally?) in just about every country on the planet.

Where I think you might need to be cautious is with the time scale.

Baseball, for example, has been played professionally in Japan for decades. I suspect since the end of WW2, but I'm not sure. The Caribbean has also been home to very high-level baseball competitions for decades. Cuba is the biggest example, but the Dominican Republic has also been baseball mad for a very long time. I don't want to wiki this (I'm lazy) but I suspect that those Caribbean islands which fell under the influence of the USA took up baseball, while those that fell under the influence of the UK took up cricket. I suspect that the 'social colonisation' preceded the sporting one and, in a sense, created the fertile ground into which the sport rooted itself more easily.

Sorry for the poncy way I've expressed that, but I'm sure you'll get my drift.


I do get your drift and you are right. Today's equivalent of the armed forces spreading the game might be the dedicated volunteers and development officers from tghe RLEF and maybe the RLIF. Also, another factor which ws not present in the original spead of sports cultures was TV. Millions of people around the world can see formerly unknown and sports and, particularlry in the cse of RL, can be attracted by the competition, physicality and athletic excellence of the sport and tghen , along comes expat worker Tommy Atkins or Bruce Fosters or even Jean Francais and proposes founding a team or two and voila, league is spread to the wider world. This is much easier to do with league since the demise of the RU ban and I think modern progress on the international front has a lot to do with that. In my area of the globe, Canada, the US and Jamaica have all gone that route. Last week the foundation of the Trinidad national body for RL was announced.

If we continue with our efforts, I think RL is on the cusp of a massive global expansion in many countries. Yes many of them are small time operations but, as you said, over time things can grow bigger and better. The NRL and the Australian game in general is the shining light in this regard.

#187 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

You are right, sports can expand. How else did soccer become so globally dominant? It is played (possibly even professionally?) in just about every country on the planet.

Where I think you might need to be cautious is with the time scale.

Baseball, for example, has been played professionally in Japan for decades. I suspect since the end of WW2, but I'm not sure. The Caribbean has also been home to very high-level baseball competitions for decades. Cuba is the biggest example, but the Dominican Republic has also been baseball mad for a very long time. I don't want to wiki this (I'm lazy) but I suspect that those Caribbean islands which fell under the influence of the USA took up baseball, while those that fell under the influence of the UK took up cricket. I suspect that the 'social colonisation' preceded the sporting one and, in a sense, created the fertile ground into which the sport rooted itself more easily.

Sorry for the poncy way I've expressed that, but I'm sure you'll get my drift.


It's true but social colonisation can be reversed. Caribbean cricket is much weaker than before because of American basketball influencing young Jamaicans, Barbadians etc.

#188 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:13 AM

Rugby Union, anything south of Nottingham.


and North of Leeds with the exception of a small struggling enclave in Cumbria

oh and in between there as well: in terms of participation, wealth, presence in schools, facilities even down to a fairly basic level-My nearest club is Leodensians-just the other side of the woods from my house. I was out there for a walk this morning. They re pretty low down the union food chain, but their facilities including multi pitches and a cricket section are excellent, also within walking distance is the magnificent West Park complex.

how many fee paying schools in the north or anywhere else in the country play rugby league? Answer 1 Leeds grammar school alongside its Union department.
How many comprehensive schools play Union-well in the North that will be most of them.
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#189 Northern Sol

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:13 AM

If we continue with our efforts, I think RL is on the cusp of a massive global expansion in many countries. Yes many of them are small time operations but, as you said, over time things can grow bigger and better. The NRL and the Australian game in general is the shining light in this regard.


Indeed. At one time Ice hockey was not a major sport in the US. The Canadians managed to make it so.

#190 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:19 AM

and North of Leeds with the exception of a small struggling enclave in Cumbria

oh and in between there as well: in terms of participation, wealth, presence in schools, facilities even down to a fairly basic level-My nearest club is Leodensians-just the other side of the woods from my house. I was out there for a walk this morning. They re pretty low down the union food chain, but their facilities including multi pitches and a cricket section are excellent, also within walking distance is the magnificent West Park complex.

how many fee paying schools in the north or anywhere else in the country play rugby league? Answer 1 Leeds grammar school alongside its Union department.
How many comprehensive schools play Union-well in the North that will be most of them.


L'Ange - pretty sure that most comprehensives in NW England do not play RU - rather RL and soccer or just soccer (if outside the heartlands). When I went to school in the late 80s in Leigh, only one school played occasional RU, whilst all of them played RL (and soccer). We played a couple of teams in Bury and Bolton too and I dont think they played RU.

#191 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

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L'Ange - pretty sure that most comprehensives in NW England do not play RU - rather RL and soccer or just soccer (if outside the heartlands). When I went to school in the late 80s in Leigh, only one school played occasional RU, whilst all of them played RL (and soccer). We played a couple of teams in Bury and Bolton too and I dont think they played RU.


and what about the rest of the north? Check what Keighley said. And his isn't the 80s this is now. What about the fee paying schools? My nephew attends Bolton School- guess what kind of Rugby they play.

check out these union schools comps in areas where apparently union is strong in the NW and ask yourself whether rugby league has anything to compare wit it. There is even a floodlit comp FFS

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 17 March 2013 - 11:41 AM.

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#192 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:42 AM

-

and what about the rest of the north? Check what Keighley said. And his isn't the 80s this is now. What about the fee paying schools? My nephew attends Bolton School- guess what kind of Rugby they play.

check out these union schools comps in areas where apparently union is strong in the NW and ask yourself whether rugby league has anything to compare wit it. There is even a floodlit comp FFS


Agree about fee paying schools but I was talking about comps

#193 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

Agree about fee paying schools but I was talking about comps


I'm talkimg about schools

http://www.schoolsru...mpetitions.aspx

des it not bother you that fee paying schools dont play rugbleague? It bothers me. We go on about rugb leaue being 'for everyone', yet thedemography of union is fa broader tan rugnby league
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#194 The Parksider

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:51 AM

I don't see that RL can't spread and develop in the same way and seems to be slowly doing so. Sports can spread to new areas successfully. Rugby ( League nor Union) has done so in the past. The game was originally an England only sport.


The idea playing Rugby per se is on the way up would seem to massively conflict with the way in which many clubs especially Union have shed teams because people no longer want to play in the same numbers.

Far from being on the rise, the game of Rugby has been on the decrease. True of amateur soccer as well.

#195 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 11:56 AM

http://www.rfu.com/~... march web.ashx
1,500 state secondary schools play competitive union. Even taking into account tat they lie, how does this compare with schools rugby league, and how many of those 1,500 are in the North of England, or in te so called heartlands(which contitute a smll part of the north)?
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#196 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:04 PM

Rugby Union, anything south of Nottingham.


and in keighley apparently

http://www.thetelegr...ugby_union_map/

Oakbank as you know is state school

what are yur impression of Keighley RUFC's failities at Utley? How do they compare wih amateu ugy league facilities int he area

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 17 March 2013 - 01:33 PM.

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#197 THE RED ROOSTER

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 12:56 PM

'The Parksider' timestamp='1363157429' post='2656446']

RL was an M62 sport at one time but now is played all over the country. That's a fact. Ask them in Hemel and Harringay
London is seen as important because it heads the south east player development system and not primarily because it attracts a bigger TV contract, which it may or may not do



Then I suggest you ask those form Hemel, Skolars, South London storm et al on this board whether or not they will be continuing without the Broncos. I suspect they will. One oif the big issues over the years has been the indifference shown by amateur clubs to the professional club
.

RL is watched all over Britain so it's watched nationally. it gets good viewing figures, people like the game.

You could say the same for American Football and several other sports.

It isn't widely played because it's too tough a sport and the vast majority of likely players are already playing union..

Rubbish it's not played in schools down here, as with the American Football example, if you want to play the game you actively have to seek a club to play it at. In the M62 zone you play at school and its a more natural progession to the amateur ranks. And as a Southerner it's distinclty patronising to claim Rugby League is tough to play. Having played in our version of Thugby Union at my comprehensive ,I have no doubt I could have been an effective forward if I had the chance to play league and i am by no means alone.down here in that respect..

London's problems are primarily poor performance, in the past they have achieved higher table rankings and even got to Wembley.

Prior to last season the clubs lowest average attendance figures were in 1999 when we got to Wembley, It's not all about performance on the field as you should realise if you have been reading the multitude of articles on London on this forum.

London as a city has a massive draw with an unlimited appetite for sport but RL only offers the glitteratti of London 1 yearly event to get their teeth into.
Watching the Bronco's should be pitched to a different punter, not the same bunch. The corporate customer has deep pockets but a lot of choice and you can't pitch a fairly low rent RL club at these people just because there might be a lot of them.

Can you explain this paragraph to me as London does not chase corporate Tail. It chases "Working class" fans, and anay and all soccer fans. it deliberately targets the lower end of the social spectrum whith the spinoff that you now have, if comments I hear at home games are anything to go by some amongst the dwindling band of fans would probably welcome Skrewdriver as a post match covers band.....

This of course ignores the fact that Whitton next to leafy Twickers is very working class and that famous left winger Kevin Sinfield himself has stated Rugby League should be open to all classes. In truth the success of sports such as Rugby Union and American Football has been on the basis of being a family game that it the anti-soccer (i.e. offering a different experience). Our Chairman, the ex-Charlton Athletic director - who advertised discounted tickets for charlton fans near the end of last season - sees the club as an off season hobby for Soccer fans and as we have even read on this forum. Given the choice between a Rugby League game and a soccer game. they go to their soccer club.

Why our hapless CEO gets the blame for being "his masters voice" and implementing the views of his chairman and employer, I would put down to fans not willing to face the reality that all decisions at the club are made and signed off by our chairman. It's said he subsidises our entertainment and has done since Ian Lenargan left but that's if you call the clubs decline on and off the field as "entertainment". The fact is he has run the club down to the extent that it will leave a toxic legacy for the game in the south.

I'm glad someone has finally come out and said this, but I don't honestly believe the RFL would ever throw them out of the league unless they opted to go like Crusaders.

Whilst there is no love for the club amongst other members of Super League, You are correct in that the probable outcome will be London's demise played out in front of sub-four figure crowds in 2014 "somewhere" in East London. A demise that no doubt has the sage of Newport salivating with twitching fingers in his Sunday Times office eager to pen the obituary.

What is not mentioned in thius thread is the effect of the failure of London Broncos to become an accepted minority sport within the London area has had upon the game as a whole because we are posting about professional sport here not some amateurs. Believe me this is reflected in sponsorship and will be in the next TV Contract. Some Super League chairman (Hudgell and Lenargan) do understand the strategic importance of a well run professional club in London. However that's not what we have got and it's important to remember its not just about a winning team or "development" that contitutes a well run club.

I also think that fans like watching relegation battles too rather than meaningless second half of season games.

We are in agreement - again - the two biggest turnouts for London in terms of away support were at Crusaders in 2006 and Widnes in 2004 which was a vital relegation game where we had about 250 which is not a lot by Northern standards but is by London standards. Its also true to note that the biggest marginal increase in the average attendances over the years has actually come in relegation struggle seasons.

Unfortunately League went down the alien route of franchising which allows underperforming organisations not to be replaced by up and coming organisations as in real life but instead creates a welfare state for them allowing underperforming organisations to contuinue to be underperforming living off the benefits given to them by the game as a whole whilst contributing little towards increasing the games profile. The Broncos from 2009 onwards are a classic case of this for if P&R was still in existence would the club be in the decrepid state it is in now, as action would have to have been taken one way or the other.

You and I agree on this but good luck in getting certain other people to acknowledge Franchisings failure

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#198 Trojan

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 02:12 PM

IThe USA invented modern baseball and it was played there alone for ,many decades but the spread of the game is growing. Japanese baseball is a hugely succesful fully pro league with huge stadia jammed with huge crowds.

I don't see that RL can't spread and develop in the same way and seems to be slowly doing so. Sports can spread to new areas successfully. Rugby ( League nor Union) has done so int the past. The game was originally an England only sport.

Yes - at last some sense! (Baseball is also a major sport in Cuba - in fact Castro had a trial with one of the big league sides in the US)

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#199 JohnM

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:16 PM

There is a difference between " It can" and " it has" . League CAN be successful at the highest level nationally and internationally but unless I am very much mistaken, it is not true to say that it HAS been successful at the highest level nationally and internationally.

I wonder why that is?
- class war?
- licencing?
- incompetence at the RFL/clubs/etc since 1895?
- lack of P and R?
- insular aussies?
- non competitive scrums?
- the war-time Vichy govt?
- the weather?
- media conspiracy?

As John Belushi said in The Blues Brothers when confronted in the sewer under the Hotel Palace Ballroom by the gun-toting woman he jilted at the altar, "IT'S NOT MY FAULT!"

No wonder Clare Balding complained about the chippy attitude of some fans.

#200 deluded pom?

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 06:24 PM

I wonder why that is?
- class war?
- licencing?
- incompetence at the RFL/clubs/etc since 1895?
- lack of P and R?
- insular aussies?
- non competitive scrums?
- the war-time Vichy govt?
- the weather?
- media conspiracy?

As John Belushi said in The Blues Brothers when confronted in the sewer under the Hotel Palace Ballroom by the gun-toting woman he jilted at the altar, "IT'S NOT MY FAULT!"

No wonder Clare Balding complained about the chippy attitude of some fans.


That was in France. Don't forget the century plus long ambitions of the various RFUs around the world to strangle any attempt at establishing RL at birth.

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