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#321 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:18 AM

RU didnt have many fans before it went pro. However my guess is that there was a huge amount of debate at all levelsbefore it did


the main public debate took place amongst the top players, in the form of interviews in the media about what it meant to them, and articles by union journos. Of course people discussed it.

Union then as now had a huge ammount of 'fans' that is why there there were an are a massive number of clubs in all sorts of areas running so many team at so many levels and why people turn out in huge numbers for internationals. It just didn't find expression in top club games. Harlequins for example was literally an exclusive club, you had to beinvited to become a member.
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#322 Trojan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 03:00 PM

How is it any different than other, were Rugby Union fans consulted about the game going pro?

The point remains, firstly you can't call that a small rise in crowds and all you are doing is idly speculating (and I suspect implying) that we would have done better or just as good in winter. There is absolutely no reason to suggest that this would have been the case.

But I never said that, I said we never found out how good the crowds would be in winter under SL. It was bulldozed through along with many other SL changes. As I said earlier, I and many of the friends I watch RL alongside were gobsmacked by many of the SL moves and summer rugby was one of the biggest surprises.
I was and am an avid reader of LE and I recall no demand in its letter columns for a change to summer - unlike the demand for a return to P&R about which there is at least one letter per week.
As for Union going pro the players had been advocating it for years - it was "the old farts" who were against it. And many of the old guard journos - I know for a fact that Clem Thomas who wrote for the Guardian was very much against pro Union - his attitude was if players want to make money out of playing rugby let them go and play RL - a view I very much agreed with! The World Cup was one catalyst in Union going honest - Super League was another IMO.
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#323 Les Tonks Sidestep

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:16 PM

But I never said that, I said we never found out how good the crowds would be in winter under SL. It was bulldozed through along with many other SL changes. As I said earlier, I and many of the friends I watch RL alongside were gobsmacked by many of the SL moves and summer rugby was one of the biggest surprises.
I was and am an avid reader of LE and I recall no demand in its letter columns for a change to summer - unlike the demand for a return to P&R about which there is at least one letter per week.
As for Union going pro the players had been advocating it for years - it was "the old farts" who were against it. And many of the old guard journos - I know for a fact that Clem Thomas who wrote for the Guardian was very much against pro Union - his attitude was if players want to make money out of playing rugby let them go and play RL - a view I very much agreed with! The World Cup was one catalyst in Union going honest - Super League was another IMO.


Back in 1995, Murdoch had just failed to get cricket exclusively for Sky. He needed a 'filler' for the summer and so bought the 'British' game. In order to get the move to summer through without any backlash several mergers were proposed which took everyone's mind off the change to a summer season.

And there you have it!

#324 tonyXIII

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:31 PM

Back in 1995, Murdoch had just failed to get cricket exclusively for Sky. He needed a 'filler' for the summer and so bought the 'British' game. In order to get the move to summer through without any backlash several mergers were proposed which took everyone's mind off the change to a summer season.

And there you have it!


Are you sure? I thought he 'bought' the British game to help him in his bid to get hold of the pay TV rights for the Australian game. I'm willing to bow to greater knowledge, though.

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#325 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 05:52 PM

But I never said that, I said we never found out how good the crowds would be in winter under SL. It was bulldozed through along with many other SL changes. As I said earlier, I and many of the friends I watch RL alongside were gobsmacked by many of the SL moves and summer rugby was one of the biggest surprises.
I was and am an avid reader of LE and I recall no demand in its letter columns for a change to summer - unlike the demand for a return to P&R about which there is at least one letter per week.
As for Union going pro the players had been advocating it for years - it was "the old farts" who were against it. And many of the old guard journos - I know for a fact that Clem Thomas who wrote for the Guardian was very much against pro Union - his attitude was if players want to make money out of playing rugby let them go and play RL - a view I very much agreed with! The World Cup was one catalyst in Union going honest - Super League was another IMO.


But you have implied that summer rugby could be one of the worst things to happen to the game. Idle speculation is idle speculation, you can't use it to dismiss a crowd increase of 80%.

The number of logical fallacies you continue to rack up is incredible. You cannot compare the reaction to the removal of something as important to many fans and clubs as P&R to people writing in asking to switch to summer.

A fairer comparison would be the number of letters calling for a return to winter rugby. Just out of interest (and I know the answer being a reader for 15 years) how often do we get letters on that subject?



#326 Trojan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:37 PM

But you have implied that summer rugby could be one of the worst things to happen to the game. Idle speculation is idle speculation, you can't use it to dismiss a crowd increase of 80%.

The number of logical fallacies you continue to rack up is incredible. You cannot compare the reaction to the removal of something as important to many fans and clubs as P&R to people writing in asking to switch to summer.

A fairer comparison would be the number of letters calling for a return to winter rugby. Just out of interest (and I know the answer being a reader for 15 years) how often do we get letters on that subject?

No I said that Union had increased its club crowds enormously and played their game in the winter. Why had we just surrendered winter to them and soccer? Perhaps our crowds would have expanded by the same extent as theirs. Summer Rugby was sold to the fans on the promise that the game would get a higher profile because there were less distractions. All I did was point out that this was a spurious argument and that Union hadn't found playing in winter a problem. I said from the start that I could see points in favour of both winter and summer - but to repeat again RL never tried it.
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#327 Dave T

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:42 PM

No I said that Union had increased its club crowds enormously and played their game in the winter. Why had we just surrendered winter to them and soccer? Perhaps our crowds would have expanded by the same extent as theirs. Summer Rugby was sold to the fans on the promise that the game would get a higher profile because there were less distractions. All I did was point out that this was a spurious argument and that Union hadn't found playing in winter a problem. I said from the start that I could see points in favour of both winter and summer - but to repeat again RL never tried it.

Are you saying RL didn't try Winter?

If we didn't move to winter, the only real change in effect was a new shiny logo for the tournament.

#328 Trojan

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:24 PM

Are you saying RL didn't try Winter?

If we didn't move to winter, the only real change in effect was a new shiny logo for the tournament.

I'm saying that fully pro Super League didn't try winter. Perhaps I should have made that clear, but I thought everyone was aware that RL was played in winter until 1996.
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#329 The Parksider

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

I said we never found out how good the crowds would be in winter under SL.


Fair play to you Tro we didn't.

Mindst you some of the February and March crowds we are getting are awful.

Saints 5,300 - appalling!

:lol:

#330 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:32 PM

But I never said that, I said we never found out how good the crowds would be in winter under SL. It was bulldozed through along with many other SL changes. As I said earlier, I and many of the friends I watch RL alongside were gobsmacked by many of the SL moves and summer rugby was one of the biggest surprises.
I was and am an avid reader of LE and I recall no demand in its letter columns for a change to summer - unlike the demand for a return to P&R about which there is at least one letter per week.
As for Union going pro the players had been advocating it for years - it was "the old farts" who were against it. And many of the old guard journos - I know for a fact that Clem Thomas who wrote for the Guardian was very much against pro Union - his attitude was if players want to make money out of playing rugby let them go and play RL - a view I very much agreed with! The World Cup was one catalyst in Union going honest - Super League was another IMO.


well we have freak weather conditions where we are going into easter with classic winter weather. I hopeyou are enjoing your rugby.

Summer Rugby was high on the agenda and had been a topic resurrected regularly in the Rugby League media: usually when games were postpondandfixturs piled up, or when attendances were poor.
It was the same with Super League: from the late eighties onwards the biger clubs were working on breaking away and forming theior own Super League, even without a SKY deal. This would have meant more big games, less subsidising of the smaller clubs by boosting the smaller clubs' attendances whilst having lower attendances when these clubs were the visitors.

Clem Thomas was either;
lying
naive
or livin in a dreamworld.

Here's why. veiled professionalism had been allowed, or turned a blind eye to in Wales since the English Northern clubs formed the Northern Union. It was politically expedient when the game was in a state offlux. the England team had already been captaind by a professional on the firs tour down under. In Thomas' own lifetime professionalism was open in France and South Africa, nd turned a blind eye to in Australia and New Zealand.

Rugby League wasn't and isn't a purely professional sport: so Thomas was showing his ignorance.

If you want a modern example of professionalism in modern Welsh Union read Allan Bateman's autobiography in which he describes taking a pay cut by joining Warrington: the attraction as in almost all such cases being the huge signing on fee.

Why would yo agree with the dishonesty and hypicrisy of shamateurism?

Union's following was already there when it went honsetly professional. It had aand has massive supprt: it just didn't until the miod 90s find expression in attending big club games.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 27 March 2013 - 08:38 PM.

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#331 Northern Sol

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 08:58 PM

Rugby League wasn't and isn't a purely professional sport: so Thomas was showing his ignorance.


How so?

He didn't claim that it was a purely professional sport. He just said you could get paid to play rugby in rugby league.

I also don't think this equates to ignoring boot money either. No doubts he had an opinion about that too.

#332 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 10:15 PM

How so?

He didn't claim that it was a purely professional sport. He just said you could get paid to play rugby in rugby league.

I also don't think this equates to ignoring boot money either. No doubts he had an opinion about that too.

I see what you mean
My comments related to the fact that according to the quote he equated rugby league with professionalism which was not the case and that he equated union with amateurism which wasn't the case either
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#333 Northern Sol

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:08 AM

I see what you mean
My comments related to the fact that according to the quote he equated rugby league with professionalism which was not the case and that he equated union with amateurism which wasn't the case either


I think it is more a case of a lot of unionites thought that there was nothing wrong with professional rugby just that it wasn't "the union way". He might well have wished any lad "going north" good luck but don't come back to our club as a player.

Obviously 99% of RL is amateur and unionites generally don't realise this. He probably wasn't an exception but he didn't actually state it as fact.

#334 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

I think it is more a case of a lot of unionites thought that there was nothing wrong with professional rugby just that it wasn't "the union way". He might well have wished any lad "going north" good luck but don't come back to our club as a player.

Obviously 99% of RL is amateur and unionites generally don't realise this. He probably wasn't an exception but he didn't actually state it as fact.

sounds reasonable to me.
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#335 Trojan

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:38 AM

Clem Thomas was either;
lying
naive
or livin in a dreamworld.

There you go again with the insults. Fortuntately Clem's dead so can't sue. Everyone knows that Union was covertly pro in Wales, perhaps not so much in the other home nations,but you could get yourself a nice sinecure on the back of an international cap. I seem to recall John Scott, an Englishman who played for Cardiff signing for one of the top French Union sides and finding himself running a bar in - was Brive? The big attraction for Union players signing for League was the tax free "compensation for loss of amateur status" they got.
I've no doubt top players in the UK were looking at Australia, NZ and SA where they knew their contemporaries were getting big bucks from the scarcely veiled professional Unions there. Wasn't it Campese who was the highest paid Union player in the world?
Clem Thomas and others like him wanted to maintain the status quo because presumably they feared that if Union went openly pro many of the top clubs wouldn't be able to sustain the cost. Certainly in Wales it appears he was right and to a lesser extent in England - as I posted earlier its not that long since Orrell dominated Union. The Underwoods, Les Cusworth, Brian Barley, and Mike Harrison all turned out for Wakefield in the fairly recent past. Neither club exsists today.
To get back to the point, continuing to play in winter was never tried. It's true we have freak weather at the moment, it's also true that under either regime we'd be playing at the moment. Last year at this time it was 20 degrees. The same could be said for Autumn 2011 - one of the mildest on record but the regular season was over. In May 1979 the week of the CC Final, I had a week off work, to paint the outside of my house and to go to Wembley - it snowed. As I posted originally - I don't see the big advantage of the switch. I don't advocate a switch back, although playing the GF at Old Trafford on a balmy May evening does sound more attractive than last October in the p i s s i n g rain.

Edited by Trojan, 28 March 2013 - 08:41 AM.

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#336 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

No I said that Union had increased its club crowds enormously and played their game in the winter. Why had we just surrendered winter to them and soccer? Perhaps our crowds would have expanded by the same extent as theirs. Summer Rugby was sold to the fans on the promise that the game would get a higher profile because there were less distractions. All I did was point out that this was a spurious argument and that Union hadn't found playing in winter a problem. I said from the start that I could see points in favour of both winter and summer - but to repeat again RL never tried it.


You actually said you couldn't see any advantages of playing in summer.

I think the reasons for Union's growth have been more explained to you since and it is incredibly unlikely we would have followed their growth with what would have been a rebadging exercise.

#337 Trojan

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 08:47 AM

You actually said you couldn't see any advantages of playing in summer.

I think the reasons for Union's growth have been more explained to you since and it is incredibly unlikely we would have followed their growth with what would have been a rebadging exercise.

Well if I said that I should have said I can't see how the advantages of playing in summer outweigh the advantages of playing in winter - in other words I can't see the reason for the headlong rush to play in summer without any consideration for the fans' feelings on the matter. There didn't appear to be any great groundswell of demand for the switch.
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#338 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:15 AM

There you go again with the insults. Fortuntately Clem's dead so can't sue. Everyone knows that Union was covertly pro in Wales, perhaps not so much in the other home nations,but you could get yourself a nice sinecure on the back of an international cap. I seem to recall John Scott, an Englishman who played for Cardiff signing for one of the top French Union sides and finding himself running a bar in - was Brive? The big attraction for Union players signing for League was the tax free "compensation for loss of amateur status" they got.
I've no doubt top players in the UK were looking at Australia, NZ and SA where they knew their contemporaries were getting big bucks from the scarcely veiled professional Unions there. Wasn't it Campese who was the highest paid Union player in the world?
Clem Thomas and others like him wanted to maintain the status quo because presumably they feared that if Union went openly pro many of the top clubs wouldn't be able to sustain the cost. Certainly in Wales it appears he was right and to a lesser extent in England - as I posted earlier its not that long since Orrell dominated Union. The Underwoods, Les Cusworth, Brian Barley, and Mike Harrison all turned out for Wakefield in the fairly recent past. Neither club exsists today.
To get back to the point, continuing to play in winter was never tried. It's true we have freak weather at the moment, it's also true that under either regime we'd be playing at the moment. Last year at this time it was 20 degrees. The same could be said for Autumn 2011 - one of the mildest on record but the regular season was over. In May 1979 the week of the CC Final, I had a week off work, to paint the outside of my house and to go to Wembley - it snowed. As I posted originally - I don't see the big advantage of the switch. I don't advocate a switch back, although playing the GF at Old Trafford on a balmy May evening does sound more attractive than last October in the p i s s i n g rain.


so he says that union should remain amateur, when in fact it wasn't, and that 'everyone knew' taht it wasn't: and you consider my comments an 'insult', to compound matters you say he considered it to be a good thing, on top of which you agree with this.

whilst all this hypoctisy and dishonesty is going on peple are being banned for life, shunned by and vilified by one sport n the grounds that tey have played another on he grounds of being 'professionalised' whether they have recievd any kind of payment or not. Hugeammounts of money is bein g lost to the exchequer because of the blatant tax evasion(it isn't even avoidance), peole are being given sinecure jobs wth huge salaries as rward for ther success on the field, or to keep them aat their clubs, and you think this is a good thing.

at least the GF could be played unlike rcen weeks, and probably this holidy period as well, and Old Trafford id one of the best stadiums in the world-the rain isn't a major issue.
still waiting for answers to the question on the referendum.
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#339 Trojan

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:47 AM

still waiting for answers to the question on the referendum.

Another example of your conceit. Still wating for an apology for the various insults I've received from you over the past year, totally unjustified - I've done nothing do deserve them, the opposite really, I try to keep on good terms with everyone, just because my views happen to differ from yours. IIRC I answered your question about referendum a few posts ago. But for the record, it wouldn't have been beyond the wit of man to survey crowds at games. There was no overwhelming demand - if there had been I'm sure such a survey would have taken place.
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#340 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:51 AM

Another example of your conceit. Still wating for an apology for the various insults I've received from you over the past year, totally unjustified - I've done nothing do deserve them, the opposite really, I try to keep on good terms with everyone, just because my views happen to differ from yours. IIRC I answered your question about referendum a few posts ago. But for the record, it wouldn't have been beyond the wit of man to survey crowds at games. There was no overwhelming demand - if there had been I'm sure such a survey would have taken place.


name them

so now its a survey.
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