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Two tier SL on the way


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#441 The Parksider

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:27 PM

Leigh or Fax may well have a good year on the field, but looking at attendances so far, neither club have any hope of getting near the 2500 average, unless they get about 20,000 for the final home game.

I don't believe that either club turns over the required £1m too.

Nor do they have the required youth set ups.

Fev are the only club anywhere near on the criteria.


The others have had their day. Featherstone must have theirs...

#442 The Parksider

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:49 PM

If theres 10 sustainably run potentially SL standard clubs in the Championship in the future, then theres no reason for the RFL to keep P&R out of the game.

Key word there is sustainability. Theres 5 clubs in our league heading in the right direction.


They can put P & R back for me tomorrow.

But they should honour what may be the final promise to "promote a CC club" before they do so.

Ralph Rimmer did an article extolling the virtues of licensing around 2006 that I can still see now. In theory he was right, in practice it didn't really happen.

You say 5 clubs in the CC are heading in the right direction, wait whilst they get in SL they'll then be heading in the wrong direction, and that's where Rimmer got it wrong.

He assumed you could get growth with a sustained/guaranteed period of tenure in Superleague.

You need more than that, Now how much exactly is nabbers going to put in?

Edited by The Parksider, 19 March 2013 - 09:52 PM.


#443 RSN

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 09:52 PM

The others have had their day. Featherstone must have theirs...


That's the point about Fev you will always have to take into consideration, will the club stay the same if they get a no? Or will fans start to decline. If they get a no then carry on getting the 2k+ average then fair play to them, but if they get a no and fans start to decline then they are just like Fax and Barrow having their day in the sun. But who knows what will happen.

#444 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 10:46 PM

You mean like the Premier League?

Can't agree with any of that. The top tickets in SL are too cheap. We need to be offering more to more demographics, not just catering for the current demographic. That doesn't mean raising prices. It just means offering more products.


No I don't mean like The Premier League. I bailed on soccer because of the hierarchies that sport embraces (or at least refuses to tackle). From conversations I have with soccer fans of all colours my belief is that many others are doing the same. The Premier League is the absolute antithesis of what Super League should aspire to be.

I mean like the NRL. I guess most people on here know about it. It's doing quite well for itself just now and is an amazing watch week in-week out. I wonder if this would still be the case if they had P&R with 10 or so smaller sides in the mix vying for a spot?

#445 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:06 AM

No I don't mean like The Premier League. I bailed on soccer because of the hierarchies that sport embraces (or at least refuses to tackle). From conversations I have with soccer fans of all colours my belief is that many others are doing the same. The Premier League is the absolute antithesis of what Super League should aspire to be.

I mean like the NRL. I guess most people on here know about it. It's doing quite well for itself just now and is an amazing watch week in-week out. I wonder if this would still be the case if they had P&R with 10 or so smaller sides in the mix vying for a spot?

But the Premier League pulls in hundreds of thousands each week and charges a huge scale of prices, yet there is a huge class difference. So why should we wait for SL to even out before charging more for certain things?

It's like those fans that moan tat they can't afford both home and away shirts and then a charity shirt and then blame the club for ripping them off. How about you just spend what you can afford and let those that want to spend more do so!
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#446 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:59 AM

That's the point about Fev you will always have to take into consideration, will the club stay the same if they get a no? Or will fans start to decline. If they get a no then carry on getting the 2k+ average then fair play to them, but if they get a no and fans start to decline then they are just like Fax and Barrow having their day in the sun. But who knows what will happen.


100% agree, there's often wishful thinking about what will happen to our game and our clubs, and you can't blame people for that really. We all like to think it's the greatest game and that some sort of catalyst will come along and make it so and wake the people of Great Britain up to Rugby League. The free gangway was the first monster catalyst allowing RL to take off and the SKY contracts, this current one being £90,000,000, was the second monster opportunity for the game to fly.

Some crowds in SL and CC have hit rock bottom this season and there's Garry Schofield recommending we keep certain SL clubs off the television less they put sponsors off for life!!! It's clearly a struggle for life for our game.

IMHO it's easy to predict SL1 & SL2, just look at who has the money and who doesn't and that's just about how it will pan out, how it will pan out crowd wise is easy also. Five figure crowds round the top of SL1 and lucky to get a four figure crowd at the bottom of SL2.

Then there'll be clubs who will always be in SL1 and clubs who'll always be in SL2 but "who can dream" leaving the same clubs to yo=yo up and down. I know none of this for sure as I have no crystal ball I just have a draw full of history books.

Let's hope there a third major catalyst. In this, SKY increase their Funding by 50%, and all the clubs pay a big levy on their incomes and the whole massive pot is shared evenly amongst the 20 clubs annually. Even I'm wishful thinking now.

Edited by The Parksider, 20 March 2013 - 08:26 AM.


#447 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:04 AM

anyone got any evidence that gates are falling as asserted? The only evidence I have seen posted, based on one club only and after only a few games, is that they are going up.


theer is none.

The poster who asserted this for a long time argued that attendancs were falsified, now hey presto they are accurate.

But lets assume that hety are, even if the statement is based on the meaningless sample of a few games.


There is no trend. There is a trend for steadily rising attendancs in Super League. If this season, or een last season bucks that trend well of course there has to be a reason, but that reason by no means and probably isn't, because it stands against the upwards trend. Perhaps fewer people, particularly from the narrow, relatively economcly vulnerable demography of rugby league are enjoying public entertainment. Perhaps people are preferring to watch thegame at home or in the pub, or do something else with their time in wha hs been a prolongued time of climatic misery. perhaps issues at individual clubs that have a history of big audiences Bradord for instance with their problems are part of the picture. All these andpossibly others have to betaken into consideration, and they haven't. That is, again, assuming at this small sample of attendance figures mean anything. What has happened is that somebody has clutched at a traw to support ther agenda, just as happenedin the first place that prompted the starting of the thread.

Nobody who supports this idea-I could be mistaken here, as the will to live has occassionally deserted me as I've trudged through this thread, has discussed the likely return of the yo yo syndrome and all that goes with it under this system, or whether there will be prom and reg to and from it between it and thechampionship. Surely these clubs wont be 'cast adrift', and 'left to rot', wit 'nothing to aim for', no 'dreams to fulfil', that would be immoral and unfair wouldn't it?
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#448 Dave T

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

Then there'll be clubs who will always be in SL1 and clubs who'll always be in SL2 but "who can dream" leaving the same clubs to yo=yo up and down. I know none of this for sure as I have no crystal ball I just have a draw full of history books.


I think people over-state the yo-yo effect. Sure there will be clubs who are somehwere in between the top 2 divisions, but haven't we also seen the likes of Wigan, Hull, Hull KR, Cas relegated and promoted and become important parts of the top division?

#449 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:15 AM

I think people over-state the yo-yo effect. Sure there will be clubs who are somehwere in between the top 2 divisions, but haven't we also seen the likes of Wigan, Hull, Hull KR, Cas relegated and promoted and become important parts of the top division?


happend to wigan once pre SL

Hull KR were up and down pre SL righ enough: check the history associated with tha:t they've regularly wrestled with penury

Cas were never relegatd pre SL, and were always more or less competitive in that era. Rlegated and promoted twice in the SL era andlook at the state of them.

Hull FC well you do have to wonder about them I admit. Hull is supposed to be a RL mad city and Hull GC had the glory pre SL, but their record as a sporting organisation in arguably the most favourable conditions for RL during that era is not good. However since joining SL they have been a force in the game, ifa slightly under achieving one.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 20 March 2013 - 10:16 AM.

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#450 roughyedspud

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:29 AM

we where a yo-yo club in the 80's to early 90's......oh the glory days!

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#451 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:41 AM

we where a yo-yo club in the 80's to early 90's......oh the glory days!


you clearly didn't have to pay the bills as you enjoyed that glory with your stadium falling apart around you.

on the other hand mybe the irony whizzed past me.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 20 March 2013 - 10:42 AM.

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#452 Les Tonks Sidestep

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:52 AM

..
Cas were never relegatd pre SL, and were always more or less competitive in that era. Rlegated and promoted twice in the SL era andlook at the state of them.
...


Utter barmy implication. The simple fact is they're broke and were heading that way when relegated.

#453 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:54 AM

Let's be clear, I didn't start this debate, Andy Gatcliffe did. I brought it to this board as an interesting and worthwhile subject to discuss. Twenty three pages would suggest that it is of interest. I have no agenda other than seeing the game become as strong and as attractive as it can possibly be and make no apology for wanting to see my club rubbing shoulders once again with the big boys. There are few who would say that the Featherstone Rovers club doesn't deserve to do so.

People with far more insight into the state of the game have decided that a review is needed and are conducting this right now. If nothing changes at the end of it, so be it. But until that decision is delivered Gatcliffe's vision and anyone else's is worthy of debate. There may indeed be good reasons for gates appearing to be falling at clubs right now but the wages still have to be paid somehow. Let's indeed hope there's no long term trend. However, Bradford's are surprisingly down by around 2000 to 3000 per game so far with the team flying. Assuming last year's declared gates were accurate, Im not too sure the new owners will be convinced there's no cause for concern and they wont be alone either.


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#454 hindle xiii

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:01 AM

People with far more insight into the state of the game have decided that a review is needed and are conducting this right now. If nothing changes at the end of it, so be it.

Is there? I'm not challenging this, I just didn't know it was happening. Any more info?

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#455 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:02 AM

Utter barmy implication. The simple fact is they're broke and were heading that way when relegated.


well put it is way. It didn't do them a lot of good. So they were 'heading that way when relegated', do you think retaining an SL squad in order to go back up again twice will have helped.

They were nver relgated during the pe SL era.
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#456 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:08 AM

Let's be clear, I didn't start this debate, Andy Gatcliffe did. I brought it to this board as an interesting and worthwhile subject to discuss. Twenty three pages would suggest that it is of interest. I have no agenda other than seeing the game become as strong and as attractive as it can possibly be and make no apology for wanting to see my club rubbing shoulders once again with the big boys. There are few who would say that the Featherstone Rovers club doesn't deserve to do so.

People with far more insight into the state of the game have decided that a review is needed and are conducting this right now. If nothing changes at the end of it, so be it. But until that decision is delivered Gatcliffe's vision and anyone else's is worthy of debate. There may indeed be good reasons for gates appearing to be falling at clubs right now but the wages still have to be paid somehow. Let's indeed hope there's no long term trend. However, Bradford's are surprisingly down by around 2000 to 3000 per game so far with the team flying. Assuming last year's declared gates were accurate, Im not too sure the new owners will be convinced there's no cause for concern and they wont be alone either.


surely the point of being in the elite competition isn't to 'rub shoulders with the big boys', but to compete with them and become one of them.

One would hope that the running of the sport, it's structure and its challenges are alwsays under review.

Why shouldn't one assume that a club's gates-including your own are accurate? You can't pick and choose to support your argument.
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#457 Dave T

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:28 AM

happend to wigan once pre SL

Hull KR were up and down pre SL righ enough: check the history associated with tha:t they've regularly wrestled with penury

Cas were never relegatd pre SL, and were always more or less competitive in that era. Rlegated and promoted twice in the SL era andlook at the state of them.

Hull FC well you do have to wonder about them I admit. Hull is supposed to be a RL mad city and Hull GC had the glory pre SL, but their record as a sporting organisation in arguably the most favourable conditions for RL during that era is not good. However since joining SL they have been a force in the game, ifa slightly under achieving one.

But Cas are struggling now as they are struggling to keep up with some of the big boys. I actually thought Cas were only relegated the once tbh, didn't realise it was twice.

My point is though that if clubs yo-yo it is because they aren't doing brilliantly, I don;t necessarily think that P&R caused them the hardship.
Naturally everything is not black and white though and we could both find examples to support our stance.

#458 Dave T

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:33 AM

Is there? I'm not challenging this, I just didn't know it was happening. Any more info?

I think Gatcliffe has stated before that the structure of the SL will be discussed, although I'm not sure whether that is a BAU agenda point rather than any new review.

I have read people on here state that Gatcliffe is nobody important, yet from reading the report from the last guy (can't remember his name) it would appear that the 14 club stakeholders decide the number of teams in SL and them alone - they don't even need the RFL to support it.
Gatcliffe speaking about this is an important step - although it means nothing if his club gets no support from the other 13 SL clubs.

#459 roughyedspud

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:34 AM

you clearly didn't have to pay the bills as you enjoyed that glory with your stadium falling apart around you.

on the other hand mybe the irony whizzed past me.


great times being in oldham fan in the 80's & early 90's...a few promotions,some decent seasons in the top flight...a hand full of lancashire & premiership finals appearances,4 challenge cup semi finals,nearly beating the mighty 86' aussies........great times

and maybe if you know the full story about watersheddings you'd know better than to bring it up.....still a very touchy subject to many a oldham fan....the club was royally screwed by oldham council...the club had agreed to sell the ground for a tidy sum to a property developer,the council made a counter offer to buy the ground,for less money,but build us a new stadium........we took the councils offer...then the council then sold on the watershedding to the same property developer making a few million on the deal and then f**ked us on building us a stadium.......

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#460 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:39 AM

Is there? I'm not challenging this, I just didn't know it was happening. Any more info?

I understand so, instigated by Maurice Watkins' findings a few months ago. Various sub committees looking at all aspects of the game.
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