Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 400 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, 38 years of history from Open Rugby to the present day.
Click here for the digital edition to read online via smartphone, tablet and desktop devices including iPhone, iPad, Android & Kindle HD.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 400
/ View a Gallery of all 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 400
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Two tier SL on the way


  • Please log in to reply
723 replies to this topic

#461 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,453 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

Is there? I'm not challenging this, I just didn't know it was happening. Any more info?


Nope. We'll just have to wait and see.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#462 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,772 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:23 PM

I think Gatcliffe has stated before that the structure of the SL will be discussed, although I'm not sure whether that is a BAU agenda point rather than any new review.

I have read people on here state that Gatcliffe is nobody important, yet from reading the report from the last guy (can't remember his name) it would appear that the 14 club stakeholders decide the number of teams in SL and them alone - they don't even need the RFL to support it.
Gatcliffe speaking about this is an important step - although it means nothing if his club gets no support from the other 13 SL clubs.


The details regarding the appropriate clubs, attendances, funding for SL etc can and have been debated ad naseum but the strategy for our top tier and it's market value is clearly becoming more important now than in the last 17 years. If Gatcliffe has jumped the gun with his idea then by all means argue the opposite but you can't dismiss him or those prepared to listen as non-entities and fantasists.

I took Gatcliffe's comments seriously because otherwise who do we take seriously? In the last few weeks the viability of both the clubs in SL (particularly London) and the structure of SL has come into the spot light. These things are not done in isolation or by people not savvy to the modern way in which news is spread.

Many have predicted the likelyhood of licencing being scrapped and I believe this is where we start to understand what the alternative will look like without tearing up the whole idea of a Super League for RL.

#463 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,135 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:33 PM

The details regarding the appropriate clubs, attendances, funding for SL etc can and have been debated ad naseum but the strategy for our top tier and it's market value is clearly becoming more important now than in the last 17 years. If Gatcliffe has jumped the gun with his idea then by all means argue the opposite but you can't dismiss him or those prepared to listen as non-entities and fantasists.

I took Gatcliffe's comments seriously because otherwise who do we take seriously? In the last few weeks the viability of both the clubs in SL (particularly London) and the structure of SL has come into the spot light. These things are not done in isolation or by people not savvy to the modern way in which news is spread.

Many have predicted the likelyhood of licencing being scrapped and I believe this is where we start to understand what the alternative will look like without tearing up the whole idea of a Super League for RL.

agreed

#464 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:43 PM

There are few who would say that the Featherstone Rovers club doesn't deserve to do so.


That's hugely contentious. These threads throw up very many challenges to that suggestion. There are views ranging from the romantics with a sense of fair play all the way to those more modern realists who see smaller sides as damaging to the top flight and all the way inbetween. It is far from a consensus point and ultimately what these debates hinge on.

I for one would abandon SL in a flash if a side with Fev's limited outreach and resources was granted a licence and/or if P&R was reinstated. You won't like that stance in the same way that I don't like your demand for the game to build itself around small clubs like yours. This is the reality of the debate we face within the game.

#465 thundergaz

thundergaz
  • Coach
  • 2,638 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:56 PM

That's hugely contentious. These threads throw up very many challenges to that suggestion. There are views ranging from the romantics with a sense of fair play all the way to those more modern realists who see smaller sides as damaging to the top flight and all the way inbetween. It is far from a consensus point and ultimately what these debates hinge on.

I for one would abandon SL in a flash if a side with Fev's limited outreach and resources was granted a licence and/or if P&R was reinstated. You won't like that stance in the same way that I don't like your demand for the game to build itself around small clubs like yours. This is the reality of the debate we face within the game.


Well your idea has been in for at least the last 6 years now and as it worked? No it hasn't I don't know whether P&R would make the difference or not but for the sport I think it would for my team I think it would be devastating as all the hard work we have put in will all hinge on that one season in the top flight. Where as if we get the chance through the franchise system we will have 3 years to establish ourselves as one of the elite. Personally I think we would and after that 3 year period I bet we wouldn't be called a small team either. We have a financial backer in mr Campbell and with feisals money I think we would be a force in SL after the 3 year stint. But like you have stated everyone as a different opinion on the issue.Our BOD as stated we just don't want to go in an make the numbers up like most promoted have done we want to be competitive and that means putting money into the game where half of the SL can't afford to do that at this present time.

Edited by thundergaz, 20 March 2013 - 01:00 PM.


#466 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,453 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:10 PM

Well your idea has been in for at least the last 6 years now and as it worked? No it hasn't I don't know whether P&R would make the difference or not but for the sport I think it would for my team I think it would be devastating as all the hard work we have put in will all hinge on that one season in the top flight. Where as if we get the chance through the franchise system we will have 3 years to establish ourselves as one of the elite. Personally I think we would and after that 3 year period I bet we wouldn't be called a small team either.


I'll take that bet. ^_^
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#467 thundergaz

thundergaz
  • Coach
  • 2,638 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:11 PM

I'll take that bet. ^_^


Richie there is a time and a place 😄😄😄

#468 matt newsholme

matt newsholme
  • Coach
  • 896 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:31 PM

However, Bradford's are surprisingly down by around 2000 to 3000 per game so far with the team flying. Assuming last year's declared gates were accurate, Im not too sure the new owners will be convinced there's no cause for concern and they wont be alone either.


Thing to remember with bradfords gates is last year we were announcing all season tickets as attending whether they did or not and they were all low priced season tickets. This year we sold 7k season tickets but they cost twice as much as last years so whilst attendances may be down the income to the club is actually higher than last years 10k gates. We've set a new club record for number of season tickets sold at full prices, as opposed to the 2011-12 pledge prices. Think max we managed at height of bull mania was 5k. Other thing to remember is our attendances tend to be lower in the early season when weather bad but a lot better in the summer months. Be interesting to see what we average over the full year as opposed to the figures so far which only cover feb and march.

#469 hindle xiii

hindle xiii
  • Coach
  • 20,973 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:33 PM

Thing to remember with bradfords gates is last year we were announcing all season tickets as attending whether they did or not and they were all low priced season tickets. This year we sold 7k season tickets but they cost twice as much as last years so whilst attendances may be down the income to the club is actually higher than last years 10k gates. We've set a new club record for number of season tickets sold at full prices, as opposed to the 2011-12 pledge prices. Think max we managed at height of bull mania was 5k. Other thing to remember is our attendances tend to be lower in the early season when weather bad but a lot better in the summer months. Be interesting to see what we average over the full year as opposed to the figures so far which only cover feb and march.

:huh: They kept that quiet then. Or to me anyway!

2826856.jpg?type=articleLandscape

 

On Odsal Top baht 'at.


#470 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,453 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 01:44 PM

Richie there is a time and a place


:lol: Touché.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#471 Terry Mullaney

Terry Mullaney
  • Coach
  • 1,987 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:24 PM

Thing to remember with bradfords gates is last year we were announcing all season tickets as attending whether they did or not and they were all low priced season tickets. This year we sold 7k season tickets but they cost twice as much as last years so whilst attendances may be down the income to the club is actually higher than last years 10k gates. We've set a new club record for number of season tickets sold at full prices, as opposed to the 2011-12 pledge prices. Think max we managed at height of bull mania was 5k. Other thing to remember is our attendances tend to be lower in the early season when weather bad but a lot better in the summer months. Be interesting to see what we average over the full year as opposed to the figures so far which only cover feb and march.

That's fair comment Matt and good news financially for the Bulls. So, in reality, are you saying that actual bodies in the ground are more or less the same as last year?
Wedding Films For The Discerning by Picture House
Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.pictureho...ingfilms.co.uk/

#472 Terry Mullaney

Terry Mullaney
  • Coach
  • 1,987 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

That's hugely contentious. These threads throw up very many challenges to that suggestion. There are views ranging from the romantics with a sense of fair play all the way to those more modern realists who see smaller sides as damaging to the top flight and all the way inbetween. It is far from a consensus point and ultimately what these debates hinge on.

I for one would abandon SL in a flash if a side with Fev's limited outreach and resources was granted a licence and/or if P&R was reinstated. You won't like that stance in the same way that I don't like your demand for the game to build itself around small clubs like yours. This is the reality of the debate we face within the game.

The current poll on this forum with votes made by forum members goes against your thoughts. You have no idea what resources are available to Fev should they reach SL and you've no idea whether they would be a success or not. Just because a club is situated in a small town doesn't mean it can only ever be a small club. There's a licensing system in place which the club is working towards while in regular dialogue with the RFL. If it meets the set criteria and surpasses the performance of a current incumbent then Fev will be in whether you like it or not. That's the deal.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 20 March 2013 - 02:43 PM.

Wedding Films For The Discerning by Picture House
Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.pictureho...ingfilms.co.uk/

#473 matt newsholme

matt newsholme
  • Coach
  • 896 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 02:57 PM

That's fair comment Matt and good news financially for the Bulls. So, in reality, are you saying that actual bodies in the ground are more or less the same as last year?


I'd say a little down though nothing like as big a drop as the figures so far suggest. In other words last years figures were inflated. Like I said I expect our crowds to steadily increase as the weather improves plus we've still got the majority of the better travelling sides left to come to odsal.

#474 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,770 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:23 PM

That's hugely contentious. These threads throw up very many challenges to that suggestion. There are views ranging from the romantics with a sense of fair play all the way to those more modern realists who see smaller sides as damaging to the top flight and all the way inbetween. It is far from a consensus point and ultimately what these debates hinge on.

I for one would abandon SL in a flash if a side with Fev's limited outreach and resources was granted a licence and/or if P&R was reinstated. You won't like that stance in the same way that I don't like your demand for the game to build itself around small clubs like yours. This is the reality of the debate we face within the game.


What is the point in having 14 pro teams and no other pro clubs? The game would die. Imagine if football did that?

So either we lose huge amounts of fans from outside SL and end up with a handful of diehards....or we lose the odd person like you who doesnt like smaller clubs.

Edited by Lobbygobbler, 20 March 2013 - 03:24 PM.


#475 Terry Mullaney

Terry Mullaney
  • Coach
  • 1,987 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 03:35 PM

I'd say a little down though nothing like as big a drop as the figures so far suggest. In other words last years figures were inflated. Like I said I expect our crowds to steadily increase as the weather improves plus we've still got the majority of the better travelling sides left to come to odsal.

Than you for that, puts things a little more into perspective
Wedding Films For The Discerning by Picture House
Free Showreel DVD On Request

http://www.pictureho...ingfilms.co.uk/

#476 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,108 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:11 PM

What is the point in having 14 pro teams and no other pro clubs? The game would die. Imagine if football did that?

So either we lose huge amounts of fans from outside SL and end up with a handful of diehards....or we lose the odd person like you who doesnt like smaller clubs.


good point lobby, although I do have a lot of empathy with what deadshot is saying...we need big clubs. That i hy I find the 'rubbing shoulders with thebig boys' comment so debilitating y at the same time so predictable. Clubs have to work toward growth ad being in te elite is an opportunity to do that: failing to see that opportunity would be an indictment of a club should it join the elite. A club in a small town can do this, although having other clubs around it in close proximity is an issue. Such clubs have to have the willingness to broaden its geograpic profile well out of its percieved geographic footprint-and I don't mean te village up the toad. It also neess o change its demographic tere must be thousand of middle class/professional people who should b turned on to Rugby League.

Reducing the number of pro clubs narrows the career pat of young players, and lowers standards.

But I do see where Deadshot is coming from. Odd isn't it that we are supposed to sympathise with the people(I'd surmise not as may as has been claimed by the reactionaries) who are supposed ro have walked because changes in the game didn't suit their ideas and requirements.

Yesterday I went to see Darren Williams at Hunslet Hawks. I've known Darren, and Ian Johnson ad Pat Benatmane a long time and others at theclub as well. They wok extremely hard and enjoy what they do. They pay their bills. If the Hawks can do it others can. Whilst I was talking to him I was reminded of what someone on here said about 'accepting mediocrity', by having dual reg players and what a smug, arrogant comment that was, and wondeed whther that person would make those comments to Darren's face. I'm not saying htat people should agree with DR.

We still haven't been told whether there hould be prom andreg to snd from this division one and two in disguise or how the inevitability of the yo y system within it should be addressed
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#477 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:26 PM

good point lobby, although I do have a lot of empathy with what deadshot is saying...we need big clubs.


Just where are these big clubs and who and how do you define a club as being "big"? If you mean big city clubs then who do we have? Leeds, Hull, Bradford, London. If you mean big crowds then who do we have? Wigan, Leeds, Hull FC, Warrington, Saints and maybe Bradford. That still leaves a shortfall that, whether you like it or not will be made up of "small" clubs. We don't have enough "big" clubs to populate a "Super" League. Where are the necessary "big" clubs going to come from?

Edited by deluded pom?, 20 March 2013 - 06:28 PM.

rldfsignature.jpg


#478 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,108 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:42 PM

Just where are these big clubs and who and how do you define a club as being "big"? If you mean big city clubs then who do we have? Leeds, Hull, Bradford, London. If you mean big crowds then who do we have? Wigan, Leeds, Hull FC, Warrington, Saints and maybe Bradford. That still leaves a shortfall that, whether you like it or not will be made up of "small" clubs. We don't have enough "big" clubs to populate a "Super" League. Where are the necessary "big" clubs going to come from?


Through growth I gave examples of the challenges presented by clubs should they have the will and ability.

Maybe there aren't any, or can't be. I'm just saying that its what the game and its elite competition need IMHO
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local

#479 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:46 PM

Through growth I gave examples of the challenges presented by clubs should they have the will and ability.

Maybe there aren't any, or can't be. I'm just saying that its what the game and its elite competition need IMHO


Who, of the current clubs, could build up to being a "big" club? There may be a couple who aren't already in the top flight but there are also a couple in the top flight who at this moment in time aren't "big" and I doubt ever will be.

rldfsignature.jpg


#480 l'angelo mysterioso

l'angelo mysterioso
  • Coach
  • 40,108 posts

Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:07 PM

Who, of the current clubs, could build up to being a "big" club? There may be a couple who aren't already in the top flight but there are also a couple in the top flight who at this moment in time aren't "big" and I doubt ever will be.


Wakefield Wildcats, The Broncos have massive potential although th Wildcats seem to be making progress after 15 years

My point is that if a club like Featherstone Rovers were to join the elite; 'rubbing shoulders with the big boys' would be a sign of failure ad a symptom of tru ambition . Joniing the elite means that you have to strive to compete with them and become one of them and to grow: I gave examples of routes for that growth. The fact that clubs in the elite aren't achieving their potential is another, valid subject for analysis
WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015
Keeping it local




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users