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Two tier SL on the way


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#481 Matt J

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 07:54 PM

I for one would abandon SL in a flash if a side with Fev's limited outreach and resources was granted a licence and/or if P&R was reinstated.


I believe that would be called a 'Twofor'.

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#482 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

Just where are these big clubs and who and how do you define a club as being "big"? If you mean big city clubs then who do we have? Leeds, Hull, Bradford, London. If you mean big crowds then who do we have? Wigan, Leeds, Hull FC, Warrington, Saints and maybe Bradford. That still leaves a shortfall that, whether you like it or not will be made up of "small" clubs. We don't have enough "big" clubs to populate a "Super" League. Where are the necessary "big" clubs going to come from?

You're right of course. The idea of a SL full of 'big' clubs commanding near capacity crowds each week is pie in the sky, totally unachievable. Featherstone Rovers have, on more than one occasion, declared their intentions to compete with the best should they make SL, by spending full cap. Strange how the term 'Rubbing shoulders with the big boys' can be interpreted as merely intending to make the numbers up.

If Fev can deliver that promise then they'd effectively become one of the bigger clubs and I find it baffling that anyone would find that unacceptable to SL.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 20 March 2013 - 08:30 PM.

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#483 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:43 PM

You're right of course. The idea of a SL full of 'big' clubs commanding near capacity crowds each week is pie in the sky, totally unachievable. Featherstone Rovers have, on more than one occasion, declared their intentions to compete with the best should they make SL, by spending full cap. Strange how the term 'Rubbing shoulders with the big boys' can be interpreted as merely intending to make the numbers up.

If Fev can deliver that promise then they'd effectively become one of the bigger clubs and I find it baffling that anyone would find that unacceptable to SL.

This from someone who sneers at clubs with far fewer advantages than his own for 'accepting mediocrity'.

Why not say 'be one of the big boys'. Saying that you wish to rub shoulders with them implies strongly that this is not the case
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Clubs in SL have grown their audiences: to an extent that a dip in those audiences to a level that would have been a major success pre SL are now seen as a sign that the system is failing. You have clearly forgotten what Peter Deakin said.
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#484 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:12 PM

I took Gatcliffe's comments seriously because otherwise who do we take seriously?


I take SKY seriously. They pump £100's millions into the game to pay the wages for professional players in an elite top competition.

They don't pay enough for the game to develop and expand never have done in 17 years.

They don't want to pay a bean for a second tier.

It's all on record, and so if Gatcliffe is to be taken seriously he needs to answer the simple elephant in the room billion pound question.

#485 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:13 PM

This from someone who sneers at clubs with far fewer advantages than his own for '

I don't sneer at anyone, not my style as you well know. I've purposely resisted responding to your nasty, spiteful and vindictive comments targeted towards me every time I offer an opinion so congratulations, you've got the better of me. I've done, not enjoyable anymore.
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#486 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:54 PM

I think people over-state the yo-yo effect. Sure there will be clubs who are somehwere in between the top 2 divisions, but haven't we also seen the likes of Wigan, Hull, Hull KR, Cas relegated and promoted and become important parts of the top division?


Wigan were relegated at a time when they only had 700 fans more than York, and Leigh were getting crowds just as good as Wigans.

What Superleague did in 1996 was start to polarise the clubs.

Small clubs who found themselves in there couldn't hack it, and larger clubs who were on a downer at the time and didn't make the cut eventually replaced them. The smaller clubs who dropped out or were frozen out of SL got smaller and the big clubs got bigger.

Go back to Wigan/Leigh. The crowd gap was a couple of hundred then but today the crowd gap is 13,500.

This is the ultimate example of why we will get yo-yoing. The big clubs are too big to not just return back to Superleague at the first go. Salford, Huddersfield and Castleford did it more than once.The little clubs will be too little to survive promotion. Look at Leigh.

Dumping such as Cas London and HKR who are struggling in SL now into an SL2, having them shorn of their best players and at best reducing their SKY money several hundred grand is only going to set them back immensly whilst the likes of Widnes, Wakefield and Salford who they may hope to replace will benefit from full SKY funding, and picking off the best players from these rivals.

Cas were down to 4700 fans on Sunday, what will the crowd be in SL2? How much less money will they get from SKY than say Wakefield along the motorway. If Cas fade in SL2 and Newmarket opens with 10,000 fans where will all the best cas players go?

The process of polarising clubs is something I've studied hard for 17 years, sure it's my "humble opinion" ATEOTD but it seems to be backed by the reality of actual events. These events can be used to make reasonable forecasts of how things may go in the future. Leeds is the ultimate example of the big club dominating small clubs to ones growth and the others shrinkage. One day I was with 150 old men trying to save Hunslet, six days later I was in a 15,000 crowd watching Leeds.

Events also put a spoke in the wheels of this process. Hull were on 14,000 crowds when HKR were down to 1,000. HKR were only saved by Hudgell coming along and putting millions in. If he hadn't of done that HKR could be where Oldham are. Similarly where would Featherstone be without Campbell and Nahaboo putting money in?? Again in Oldham's position probably.

It's argued that money men can go into clubs and money men can leave clubs. If that happens then you may get less yo-yoing and more fresh faces going either way, But what we see at the smallest of clubs is no money men at all, just supporters trying to keep their clubs alive on a shoestring.

Ten big clubs with money men in SL1 who will buy up all the best talent (I mean all) and ten much smaller SL2 clubs without money men is a recipe for Yo-yoing and IMHO the ingredients are all there.

Edited by The Parksider, 20 March 2013 - 10:56 PM.


#487 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:16 PM

I don't sneer at anyone, not my style as you well know. I've purposely resisted responding to your nasty, spiteful and vindictive comments targeted towards me every time I offer an opinion so congratulations, you've got the better of me. I've done, not enjoyable anymore.


saying that people who are working their asses of to keep their clubs going and taking them forward are 'willing to accept mediocrity' is nasty spiteful and vindictive in my book.

nobody ius trying to get the better of anyone as far as I can see: perhaps you can expand on this.
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#488 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:18 PM

Just where are these big clubs and who and how do you define a club as being "big"? If you mean big city clubs then who do we have? Leeds, Hull, Bradford, London. If you mean big crowds then who do we have? Wigan, Leeds, Hull FC, Warrington, Saints and maybe Bradford. That still leaves a shortfall that, whether you like it or not will be made up of "small" clubs. We don't have enough "big" clubs to populate a "Super" League. Where are the necessary "big" clubs going to come from?


Forget London, but what you have done is named six "big" clubs.

Not enough for a ten club SL1?? I see your point....However

Are the Catalans not a big club now? What do you think?

For me what defines a big club for our game is primarily big finances. The salary cap doesn't allow any big club to outspend others and so down at Huddersfield thanks to Ken Davey his club is as "big" as any of the seven above.

Under that scenario aren't Koukash's Salford as "big" as Wigan??

That's nine. Who will rise to be the tenth in an SL1? How would Wakefield or Featherstone fare if the other two were out of SL1 for some years with maybe a fleeting yo-yo visit now and again? Will Newmarket be the making of Wakefield.

Even at ten that's not many "big clubs", but maybe the idea behind SL1 and SL2 is to get to a league of ten clubs who can manage 10,000 crowds and pay full salary cap, the "Peacock plan".

Where it differs from the Gatcliffe plan is there's no SL2 and no P & R. It's more like a mini NRL.

#489 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:20 PM

Wigan were relegated at a time when they only had 700 fans more than York, and Leigh were getting crowds just as good as Wigans.

What Superleague did in 1996 was start to polarise the clubs.

Small clubs who found themselves in there couldn't hack it, and larger clubs who were on a downer at the time and didn't make the cut eventually replaced them. The smaller clubs who dropped out or were frozen out of SL got smaller and the big clubs got bigger.

Go back to Wigan/Leigh. The crowd gap was a couple of hundred then but today the crowd gap is 13,500.

This is the ultimate example of why we will get yo-yoing. The big clubs are too big to not just return back to Superleague at the first go. Salford, Huddersfield and Castleford did it more than once.The little clubs will be too little to survive promotion. Look at Leigh.

Dumping such as Cas London and HKR who are struggling in SL now into an SL2, having them shorn of their best players and at best reducing their SKY money several hundred grand is only going to set them back immensly whilst the likes of Widnes, Wakefield and Salford who they may hope to replace will benefit from full SKY funding, and picking off the best players from these rivals.

Cas were down to 4700 fans on Sunday, what will the crowd be in SL2? How much less money will they get from SKY than say Wakefield along the motorway. If Cas fade in SL2 and Newmarket opens with 10,000 fans where will all the best cas players go?

The process of polarising clubs is something I've studied hard for 17 years, sure it's my "humble opinion" ATEOTD but it seems to be backed by the reality of actual events. These events can be used to make reasonable forecasts of how things may go in the future. Leeds is the ultimate example of the big club dominating small clubs to ones growth and the others shrinkage. One day I was with 150 old men trying to save Hunslet, six days later I was in a 15,000 crowd watching Leeds.

Events also put a spoke in the wheels of this process. Hull were on 14,000 crowds when HKR were down to 1,000. HKR were only saved by Hudgell coming along and putting millions in. If he hadn't of done that HKR could be where Oldham are. Similarly where would Featherstone be without Campbell and Nahaboo putting money in?? Again in Oldham's position probably.

It's argued that money men can go into clubs and money men can leave clubs. If that happens then you may get less yo-yoing and more fresh faces going either way, But what we see at the smallest of clubs is no money men at all, just supporters trying to keep their clubs alive on a shoestring.

Ten big clubs with money men in SL1 who will buy up all the best talent (I mean all) and ten much smaller SL2 clubs without money men is a recipe for Yo-yoing and IMHO the ingredients are all there.


that polarisation you mention found expression in the proposed breakaway of the 'big clubs' to form an independent Super League in the lte 80s early nineties which would have sen the smaller clubs 'frozen out' entirely. In many ways the SKY deal and the introduction of SL which all the pro clubs voted for saved the other clubs from this
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#490 Padge

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:23 PM

You can carve up the divisions into any permutation you like, but, the game doesn't generate enough income to increase the number of full-time pro players.

To contemplate going to 20 full time clubs when we don't generate enough income to have 14 competitive full-time clubs is just a nonsense.

All pro sport is about cash, if you don't generate it, you'll struggle. That goes for clubs or whole sports.

Shuffling deck chairs doesn't plug financial holes, clubs should put effort into income generation before anything else, no income, no money no club.

Its all about money. You can forget all this on pitch nonsense because without money you have nobody to put on the pitch in the pro world tp prove your point.

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#491 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:26 PM

To contemplate going to 20 full time clubs when we don't generate enough income to have 14 competitive full-time clubs is just a nonsense.


Does the ten club "Peacock Plan" Superleague make sense though?

#492 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:33 PM

that polarisation you mention found expression in the proposed breakaway of the 'big clubs' to form an independent Super League in the lte 80s early nineties which would have sen the smaller clubs 'frozen out' entirely. In many ways the SKY deal and the introduction of SL which all the pro clubs voted for saved the other clubs from this


Were the smaller clubs saved or was it just a stay of execution?

SKY have certainly starved most Championship clubs into a dependance???

If that dependance deepens as it only can, what is the next big event?

In the last few months we have studied an out and out feeder league below the elite division and now the complete opposite, and out and out pro second tier.

If Tesco said they were torn between doubling the number of stores they have or running down half of them, the business community would condemn them as clueless.

#493 Padge

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:38 PM

Does the ten club "Peacock Plan" Superleague make sense though?


It makes sense in that we probably have enough quality pro players for it to be competitive, it doesn't make sense in that clubs won't have enough games to generate the income to pay those players.

We should forget any changes in league structures, its a waste of breath. Stick as we are and put all our effort into helping clubs to generate more income, everything else is just froth.

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#494 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:41 PM

It makes sense in that we probably have enough quality pro players for it to be competitive, it doesn't make sense in that clubs won't have enough games to generate the income to pay those players.

We should forget any changes in league structures, its a waste of breath. Stick as we are and put all our effort into helping clubs to generate more income, everything else is just froth.


Three x nine is 27???

Your not even a twelve man then??

Edited by The Parksider, 20 March 2013 - 11:43 PM.


#495 The Parksider

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:42 PM

Double

Edited by The Parksider, 20 March 2013 - 11:44 PM.


#496 Padge

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 11:45 PM

Three x nine is 27???

Your not even a twelve man then??


I think we spend too much time on the froth and not enough on the most vital component of the game.

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#497 The Parksider

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:15 AM

I think we spend too much time on the froth........


Then we should perhaps turn our attention away from Mr. Froth (sorry Gatcliffe) and look a little higher to perhaps Mr. Wood who recently said "It is almost inconceivable to consider yourself a national sport without having a strong presence in the capital. It is extremely important that we 'do London' and 'do London' well in terms of rugby league.

He's a bit above Gatcliffe in the decision making hierarchy. Equally Mr. Hudgells comments in this licence period, made at a time he realised funding HKR was tough were that London would be centrally funded and SL reduce back to 12.

Undoubtedly the jaw dropping RL event to end all jaw dropping RL events has to be the games christmas and birthday presents for the next decade all rolled into one by SKY deciding to heavily fund second division clubs so "all" the championship fans can have P & R. So the man from Wigan thinks this is "Pie" in the "SKY"?

What can I do but agree, and if I was forced to bet my house it would have to be that Wood again puts London down on the licensing commitees "passed fit for SL" grading sheet before they even sit and another 11 (rich) clubs are chosen. If the snow doesn't stop the game at Belle Vue Friday I may be able to check if Andrew Glover is walking around with a big smile on his face.

That Mr. Gatcliffe - he is a tease isn't he?

#498 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:34 AM

Were the smaller clubs saved or was it just a stay of execution?

SKY have certainly starved most Championship clubs into a dependance???

If that dependance deepens as it only can, what is the next big event?

In the last few months we have studied an out and out feeder league below the elite division and now the complete opposite, and out and out pro second tier.

If Tesco said they were torn between doubling the number of stores they have or running down half of them, the business community would condemn them as clueless.


on the whole I'd say they were 'saved'. All clubs havebecome more professionl in the way they operate, mos hve workd at making themselves a credible forc in their communities, most have radically improved their facilities.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 21 March 2013 - 07:34 AM.

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#499 Dave T

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:09 AM

Then we should perhaps turn our attention away from Mr. Froth (sorry Gatcliffe) and look a little higher to perhaps Mr. Wood who recently said "It is almost inconceivable to consider yourself a national sport without having a strong presence in the capital. It is extremely important that we 'do London' and 'do London' well in terms of rugby league.

He's a bit above Gatcliffe in the decision making hierarchy. Equally Mr. Hudgells comments in this licence period, made at a time he realised funding HKR was tough were that London would be centrally funded and SL reduce back to 12.

Undoubtedly the jaw dropping RL event to end all jaw dropping RL events has to be the games christmas and birthday presents for the next decade all rolled into one by SKY deciding to heavily fund second division clubs so "all" the championship fans can have P & R. So the man from Wigan thinks this is "Pie" in the "SKY"?

What can I do but agree, and if I was forced to bet my house it would have to be that Wood again puts London down on the licensing commitees "passed fit for SL" grading sheet before they even sit and another 11 (rich) clubs are chosen. If the snow doesn't stop the game at Belle Vue Friday I may be able to check if Andrew Glover is walking around with a big smile on his face.

That Mr. Gatcliffe - he is a tease isn't he?

on SL tv money and structure I think you'll find this is an issue for the clubs, not the rfl. Its in tge Watkins report.

#500 superten

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:40 AM

Heres an idea for the two leagues of ten and to help fiance the second tier and give more variety in fixtures plus prepare teams better for promotion. Play the league home and away for 18 games , then have a super league cup with both divisions mixed in to form four pools of five playing each other home and away for 8 pool games with top two in each pool making the quarter finals. If the group games were included in season ticket price crowds would be good so your season ticket would cover 9 league home games plus four home cup games. Hopefully this could help close the gap between the divisions and prepare teams better for super league.Also super league top division clubs could use some of the pool games against lesser team a chance to play some of there young up and coming players helping development and bring more players through the system.If we regionalised the groups would make it more popular so if say cas started in super two they could still be given games against leeds / wakey ect. like wise halifax v bradford or huddersfield would generate interest while leigh v wigan would be a big game. If each pool had four regional teams plus one team from distance like catalan or toulouse if were invited . If toulouse were invited to the second tier a few big games a season against super one teams would generate interest.
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