Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 400 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, 38 years of history from Open Rugby to the present day.
Click here for the digital edition to read online via smartphone, tablet and desktop devices including iPhone, iPad, Android & Kindle HD.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 400
/ View a Gallery of all 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 400
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Two tier SL on the way


  • Please log in to reply
723 replies to this topic

#501 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,549 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:47 AM

Hull were on 14,000 crowds when HKR were down to 1,000.


Care to verify this Parky?

rldfsignature.jpg


#502 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,549 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:57 AM

Forget London, but what you have done is named six "big" clubs.




Bigger doesn't mean big.


Are the Catalans not a big club now? What do you think?




I don't think Catalans are a "big" club.

For me what defines a big club for our game is primarily big finances. The salary cap doesn't allow any big club to outspend others and so down at Huddersfield thanks to Ken Davey his club is as "big" as any of the seven above.

Under that scenario aren't Koukash's Salford as "big" as Wigan??




So your sole criteria of a "big" club is money. Whilst realising the importance of money would you then accept a SL full of ten wealthy teams who couldn't collectively pull in 60,000 between them and result in two thirds empty stadiums on TV? No, Salford are not as "big" as Wigan even with Koukash's money.

That's nine. Who will rise to be the tenth in an SL1? How would Wakefield or Featherstone fare if the other two were out of SL1 for some years with maybe a fleeting yo-yo visit now and again? Will Newmarket be the making of Wakefield.




You're clutching at straws Parky. As I said earlier bigger doesn't necessarily mean big. So we're back down to half a dozen "big" clubs, tops.

Even at ten that's not many "big clubs", but maybe the idea behind SL1 and SL2 is to get to a league of ten clubs who can manage 10,000 crowds and pay full salary cap, the "Peacock plan".



There aren't ten clubs who can pay full SC and attract average 10,000+ crowds.

Edited by deluded pom?, 21 March 2013 - 09:58 AM.

rldfsignature.jpg


#503 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,486 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:36 AM

Heres an idea for the two leagues of ten and to help finance the second tier and give more variety in fixtures plus prepare teams better for promotion. Play the league home and away for 18 games , then have a super league cup with both divisions mixed in to form four pools of five playing each other home and away for 8 pool games with top two in each pool making the quarter finals. If the group games were included in season ticket price crowds would be good so your season ticket would cover 9 league home games plus four home cup games.


A glance through the attendances at Northern Rail group games would suggest that crowds may not be good - even if included in the season ticket. And groups of five means one team in each group kicking their heels every week - or "cross group" games. It's not been a winner in the past.

Would it help to narrow the standards gap ? Honestly can't see how it would. Big scorelines are all I can see.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#504 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,165 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:21 AM

Heres an idea for the two leagues of ten and to help fiance the second tier and give more variety in fixtures plus prepare teams better for promotion. Play the league home and away for 18 games , then have a super league cup with both divisions mixed in to form four pools of five playing each other home and away for 8 pool games with top two in each pool making the quarter finals. If the group games were included in season ticket price crowds would be good so your season ticket would cover 9 league home games plus four home cup games. Hopefully this could help close the gap between the divisions and prepare teams better for super league.Also super league top division clubs could use some of the pool games against lesser team a chance to play some of there young up and coming players helping development and bring more players through the system.If we regionalised the groups would make it more popular so if say cas started in super two they could still be given games against leeds / wakey ect. like wise halifax v bradford or huddersfield would generate interest while leigh v wigan would be a big game. If each pool had four regional teams plus one team from distance like catalan or toulouse if were invited . If toulouse were invited to the second tier a few big games a season against super one teams would generate interest.

I'm not in 100% agreement - but I do think we would need to be creative with the fixtures - I would like some form of 'split' in the season which basically sees teams playing teams of their level that year.

If we seriously want change, we have a blank canvas, people need to remember that.

#505 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,165 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:34 AM

It makes sense in that we probably have enough quality pro players for it to be competitive, it doesn't make sense in that clubs won't have enough games to generate the income to pay those players.

We should forget any changes in league structures, its a waste of breath. Stick as we are and put all our effort into helping clubs to generate more income, everything else is just froth.

But you could argue that any proposals for change are doing exactly what I have highlighted in your post.

Pros:
More competitve top division - larger crowds, more vibrant image, potential to be more attrative to corporates and sponsors.
Larger teams in 2nd division - The top Championship clubs with the weaker SL clubs plus an expansion team or two would look to have larger crowds than the current Championship division. The above pro's would relate to this division too.

With all due respect to certain clubs, you could argue that having weak clubs in SL playing in front of very low crowds in a division above their level is harming SL and its efforts to attract additional investment.

Sticking as we are is only the sensible option if it is genuinely felt that we are on the right road - if we don't then it is foolish.

#506 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,595 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:44 PM

Care to verify this Parky?

Oh God, he's peddling that myth again!

I think he's going for the "if I keep repeating it, it'll become true" tactic of arguing.
Posted Image

#507 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,889 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:52 PM

Care to verify this Parky?


In the mid 2000's Hulls crowds were peaking at around 14,000 when they were flying they got 14,256 for a league game against Leeds, a couple of years earlier HKR had an 1,154 attendance for a league game against Chorley.

These are in the Gillette yearbooks if the person with the stupid comment above wants to check them himself.

As it turned out Hudgell saved HKR who became strong competition to Hull. Hulls attendances dropped and Rovers rose and the old rivalries thrilled Humberside.

But in this new age of clubs who are in SL and receiving millions from SKY against clubs in the CC receiving nothing from SKY we see some very marked polarisations in levels of local support.

Care to reflect on where HKR would be today if nobody had come in to save the club DP?

Edited by The Parksider, 21 March 2013 - 02:02 PM.


#508 Ackroman

Ackroman
  • Coach
  • 1,776 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:30 PM

In the mid 2000's Hulls crowds were peaking at around 14,000 when they were flying they got 14,256 for a league game against Leeds, a couple of years earlier HKR had an 1,154 attendance for a league game against Chorley.

These are in the Gillette yearbooks if the person with the stupid comment above wants to check them himself.

As it turned out Hudgell saved HKR who became strong competition to Hull. Hulls attendances dropped and Rovers rose and the old rivalries thrilled Humberside.

But in this new age of clubs who are in SL and receiving millions from SKY against clubs in the CC receiving nothing from SKY we see some very marked polarisations in levels of local support.

Care to reflect on where HKR would be today if nobody had come in to save the club DP?


So basically a club can reach both lows and highs. What does that say about the future, other than history cannot be used to predict how a 2 tier SL may effect the improvement or otherwise of a clubs fortunes?

If history was such a strong measure of the future George Osbourne wouldn't be dancing the oke koke with the budget. He'd make his sodding mind up.

And with RL like most of us, faced with a similar challenge as him where money is restricted, do we run around bargain hunting waiting for things to change or do we take a calculated risk and try and breathe some new life into the game?

It seems there are those across the spectrum of professional RL looking for fresh breath regardless of how people try an undermine there efforts to engage in a debate about the reality of staring at an economic deficit until 2018.

There is a real potential that SL won't have a key note sponsor for the same length of time and as that continues, so it's market valued is eroded . 5 more years of that and you wonder what value SKY put on SL. So where will SL be in 5 years standing still waiting for the next gravy train to roll in to town? I bet your Gillette book won't be able to answer that question.

Edited by Ackroman, 21 March 2013 - 02:32 PM.


#509 Marty Funkhouser

Marty Funkhouser
  • Coach
  • 370 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

Care to verify this Parky?


The Chorley match i think Parky is referring to was 2002, Hulls average attendance that year was about 6000....

Its a well known fact by the money people at both clubs that it is preferable for each if the other does well..Parky is way off on this one..

Hulls average attendance shot up by 4000 in 2007 the year Rovers started in SL...

Edited by Marty Funkhouser, 21 March 2013 - 02:54 PM.


#510 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,549 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

The Chorley match i think Parky is referring to was 2002, Hulls average attendance that year was about 6000....

Its a well known fact by the money people at both clubs that it is preferable for each if the other does well..Parky is way off on this one..

Hulls average attendance shot up by 4000 in 2007 the year Rovers started in SL...


Plus, without checking the figures, the early 2000s attendances will have been boosted by the move to the KC.

rldfsignature.jpg


#511 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,889 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:34 PM

1. Its a well known fact by the money people at both clubs that it is preferable for each if the other does well..Parky is way off on this one..

2. Hulls average attendance shot up by 4000 in 2007 the year Rovers started in SL...


1. I think your way off to call that a fact good sir. Pearsons raiding of HKR players may indicate (it may not) he doesn't give a fig for HKR, indeed he may prefer Hull to be the only SL ticket in town (he may not). I can't think Hetherington would welcome Hunslet finding someone to bankroll them into Superleague?

Two 23,000 crowds were nice a few years back. This season a 7,000 above average crowd for the derby may not be worth it?

2. As I say above the one home league game against HKR now no longer produces the much much higher average gates the two KC sell outs of some years ago did??

Edited by The Parksider, 21 March 2013 - 03:50 PM.


#512 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,889 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:49 PM

1. Without checking the figures, the early 2000s attendances will have been boosted by the move to the KC.

2. Bigger doesn't mean big.I don't think Catalans are a "big" club.So your sole criteria of a "big" club is money. Whilst realising the importance of money would you then accept a SL full of ten wealthy teams who couldn't collectively pull in 60,000 between them and result in two thirds empty stadiums on TV? No, Salford are not as "big" as Wigan even with Koukash's money.You're clutching at straws Parky. As I said earlier bigger doesn't necessarily mean big. So we're back down to half a dozen "big" clubs, tops.
There aren't ten clubs who can pay full SC and attract average 10,000+ crowds.


1. This isn't relevant to the point made, in the SL era SKY money has made some clubs much much more attractive than their neighbours and it hurts the junior partner so much so they end up as the senior partner's "A" team.

2. Who is big and who is not will go on being a disagreement between us until we agree a criteria which I don't think we will.

My stance is in 1996 Wigan were a big semi pro club as were Leeds. Clubs like Warrington (5380) Saints (7467) Bradford (5654)
Hull(4165) Wakefield (3438) Fartown (2904) and Perpignan (?????) were also semi pro.

Those clubs may not be big by your yardstick but they are all much bigger clubs than they were when SL started.

You may be assuming that any further growth is now not realistic. I'd suggest there's a big club still to come out of the mess the Calder area is in. I'd suggest Toulouse may come on the scene as they were courted by the big four last year. I'd suggest a high and sustained level of investment by Koukash may turn Salford into another big club. Add London and you have the twelve clubs SL is favourite to go to.

How that pans out who knows. It could be utopia, it could be the death of Rugby league....

#513 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,889 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

So basically a club can reach both lows and highs. What does that say about the future, other than history cannot be used to predict how a 2 tier SL may effect the improvement or otherwise of a clubs fortunes?


Of course it can....

The last seventeen years has shown us how Clubs get up and down these leagues, and what affects clubs in terms of growth and depletion.

It's by money, or a lack of it, the biggest boost being SKY money then it's about their crowds.

SL2 will fail without adequate money, clubs will Yo Yo if most of the money is in the top division.

You read the history books and look at the facts and it's obvious. Davey invests and Fartown fly high, Wilkinson leaves and salford nearly die an instant death.

We both know that without Nahaboo and Chapman bankrolling Fev big time they are going nowhere. History showed us how penniless Leigh went nowhere on promotion but Hudgells HKR surived and grew on his money.

Edited by The Parksider, 21 March 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#514 superten

superten
  • Coach
  • 364 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:18 PM

Of course it can....

The last seventeen years has shown us how Clubs get up and down these leagues, and what affects clubs in terms of growth and depletion.

It's by money, or a lack of it, the biggest boost being SKY money then it's about their crowds.

SL2 will fail without adequate money, clubs will Yo Yo if most of the money is in the top division.

You read the history books and look at the facts and it's obvious. Davey invests and Fartown fly high, Wilkinson leaves and salford nearly die an instant death.

We both know that without Nahaboo and Chapman bankrolling Fev big time they are going nowhere. History showed us how penniless Leigh went nowhere on promotion but Hudgells HKR surived and grew on his money.

YOUR Right chuck cash at any historical club in the championship and crowds will come if team is winning
Chief Crazy Eagle

#515 superten

superten
  • Coach
  • 364 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 06:20 PM

1. This isn't relevant to the point made, in the SL era SKY money has made some clubs much much more attractive than their neighbours and it hurts the junior partner so much so they end up as the senior partner's "A" team.

2. Who is big and who is not will go on being a disagreement between us until we agree a criteria which I don't think we will.

My stance is in 1996 Wigan were a big semi pro club as were Leeds. Clubs like Warrington (5380) Saints (7467) Bradford (5654)
Hull(4165) Wakefield (3438) Fartown (2904) and Perpignan (?????) were also semi pro.

Those clubs may not be big by your yardstick but they are all much bigger clubs than they were when SL started.

You may be assuming that any further growth is now not realistic. I'd suggest there's a big club still to come out of the mess the Calder area is in. I'd suggest Toulouse may come on the scene as they were courted by the big four last year. I'd suggest a high and sustained level of investment by Koukash may turn Salford into another big club. Add London and you have the twelve clubs SL is favourite to go to.

How that pans out who knows. It could be utopia, it could be the death of Rugby league....

hull fc v hull kr second tier 1997 attendance 12,150 what other fixture could match that
Chief Crazy Eagle

#516 superten

superten
  • Coach
  • 364 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:01 PM

If we did have the two leagues of ten who would make up the second tier . Would you sick with heartland clubs or would you risk having exspansion clubs. Would you have featherstone or risk south wales . We could risk the two welsh teams in there along with toulouse maybe even bring in the skolars to give london two clubs or do we just fill it with heartland clubs.
Chief Crazy Eagle

#517 Ponterover

Ponterover
  • Coach
  • 1,786 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:17 PM

If we did have the two leagues of ten who would make up the second tier . Would you sick with heartland clubs or would you risk having exspansion clubs. Would you have featherstone or risk south wales . We could risk the two welsh teams in there along with toulouse maybe even bring in the skolars to give london two clubs or do we just fill it with heartland clubs.


I think to start with, you have to go with the likes of Fev, Halifax, Leigh, Sheffield. The Welsh clubs aren't quite there yet, that was the problem with fast tracking Crusaders Mk 1 (IMHO).

In 5-10 years, I'd want to see the heartland teams (yes, maybe even my beloved Fev) start being displaced by new teams, such as the Welsh teams, Hemel etc

#518 thundergaz

thundergaz
  • Coach
  • 2,648 posts

Posted 21 March 2013 - 07:39 PM

I think to start with, you have to go with the likes of Fev, Halifax, Leigh, Sheffield. The Welsh clubs aren't quite there yet, that was the problem with fast tracking Crusaders Mk 1 (IMHO).

In 5-10 years, I'd want to see the heartland teams (yes, maybe even my beloved Fev) start being displaced by new teams, such as the Welsh teams, Hemel etc


To be fair I would love our game to expand but like you say the 2nd tier would have to have Fev.fax.leigh.eagles.c@s.wakey.widnes. And maybe Toulouse I would also have London in their too but the RFL wouldn't let that happen..( This is at the moment because unless the expansion teams like crusaders. Hemel and South Wales get a financial backer they couldn't finance the 2nd tier at this moment in time. I'm not saying they never will be able to but at the minute they are not the expansion teams we would like to have in our sport.

Edited by thundergaz, 21 March 2013 - 07:43 PM.


#519 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,889 posts

Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:39 AM

hull fc v hull kr second tier 1997 attendance 12,150 what other fixture could match that


Oh God, we're not peddling that myth again!

I think some of you lot are going for the "if It keeps getting repeated, it'll become true" tactic of arguing.

In that year Hulls crowds were 6300 and Rovers crowds 2700.

One good attendance a season isn't the be all and end all of two clubs seasons is it. ;)

Edited by The Parksider, 22 March 2013 - 06:41 AM.


#520 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,949 posts

Posted 22 March 2013 - 09:11 AM

I think some of you lot are going for the "if It keeps getting repeated, it'll become true" tactic of arguing.


Indeed, perhaps you'd like to restate that "London add value to SL" a few times.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users