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Two tier SL on the way


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#581 Ponterover

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:31 PM

it's main achievement would beto get Featherstone into Super League


That's not why I like the idea.

I like it because it gives the top clubs a more intense league, it gives those bigger semi pro teams a more realistic opportunity of become full time (or near full time), it provides a lower cost environment for expansion teams to come up through the ranks, more full time pros means more stength in depth for the national teams.

Yes I would want P&R between the two pro leagues, but that is not my prime driver in liking the idea.

I can see lots of advantages, but not so many disadvantages.

Of course it all hinges on Sky wanting a pro second tier (or BT, who will need content for their launch)

#582 The Parksider

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:58 PM

Parky I'm sure mr Campbell and feisal don't think its just hot air. When we said we wanted SL I will admit I didn't think it would happen and it was hot air but what we have done on and off the field ever since we announced our intention of getting into SL is far more than unbelievable.We have made great strides since announcing we want SL. We are hitting the 2.5k average crowds needed too which I thought would be our biggiest stumbling block to be honest but now we seem to have cracked that I can't see anything stopping us now from going into SL only the RFL/SKY.


That's fine, Nabbers can only prove himself when it comes to providing the funds, can't be expected to lodge a couple of million in Rovers account now. Yes your making good honest progress and are IMHO serious.

But I don't see any other CC clubs being serious about SL and I feel they have talked the prospects up just to try to keep the fans on board.....

#583 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:05 PM

That's not why I like the idea.

I like it because it gives the top clubs a more intense league, it gives those bigger semi pro teams a more realistic opportunity of become full time (or near full time), it provides a lower cost environment for expansion teams to come up through the ranks, more full time pros means more stength in depth for the national teams.

Yes I would want P&R between the two pro leagues, but that is not my prime driver in liking the idea.

I can see lots of advantages, but not so many disadvantages.

Of course it all hinges on Sky wanting a pro second tier (or BT, who will need content for their launch)


but no promotion fom the third league, or relegation from the second league: how come?
How would expansion teams gain access to the competition?
having 20 teams means the same money is shared more thinly, or mor money will be needed-seems a bit of a problem to me
isthee not a danger of the return of the yo yo syndrome which was so debilitating to he game for for decades

'm not sure how this structure would generate more intensity: for instance talnt wouldbe spread more thinly
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#584 thundergaz

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

That's fine, Nabbers can only prove himself when it comes to providing the funds, can't be expected to lodge a couple of million in Rovers account now. Yes your making good honest progress and are IMHO serious.

But I don't see any other CC clubs being serious about SL and I feel they have talked the prospects up just to try to keep the fans on board.....


I can't comment on the other CC clubs parky but with the crowds the other 3 are getting at the minute they would need a 20k attendance for their last games of the season to hit the 2.5k average and with Leigh linking up you could be right. Also I don't know where the others would get the funding from TBH to fund SL. But like I said I don't know what is going on at them clubs just what you can see in black and white.

Edited by thundergaz, 23 March 2013 - 05:22 PM.


#585 Ponterover

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:31 PM

but no promotion fom the third league, or relegation from the second league: how come?
How would expansion teams gain access to the competition?
having 20 teams means the same money is shared more thinly, or mor money will be needed-seems a bit of a problem to me
isthee not a danger of the return of the yo yo syndrome which was so debilitating to he game for for decades

'm not sure how this structure would generate more intensity: for instance talnt wouldbe spread more thinly


I didn't claim it was perfect, just that I like it.

Of course there needs to be a route in from the bottom end, be it P&R or periodic elevation. How else would expansion teams get in?

The top ten clubs would get the best players and be playing against the best clubs week in week out, that has to be more intense.

20 teams sharing the same money is a non starter, clearly a better / different tv deal is needed and assumes that Sky, BT or whoever will pay for the 2nd division rights.

I'm not too worried about yo-yo, teams will find a level, some will step up and stay, some will fall and stay, some will move more often between the leagues, that's sport. Some Premier League style parachute payments may be required, but that would need to be factored in to the price of any TV deal.

#586 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:51 PM

I didn't claim it was perfect, just that I like it.

Of course there needs to be a route in from the bottom end, be it P&R or periodic elevation. How else would expansion teams get in?

The top ten clubs would get the best players and be playing against the best clubs week in week out, that has to be more intense.

20 teams sharing the same money is a non starter, clearly a better / different tv deal is needed and assumes that Sky, BT or whoever will pay for the 2nd division rights.

I'm not too worried about yo-yo, teams will find a level, some will step up and stay, some will fall and stay, some will move more often between the leagues, that's sport. Some Premier League style parachute payments may be required, but that would need to be factored in to the price of any TV deal.


I didn't say you did say it was perfect.

I'm very worried about yo yo teams, and there's a good chance that yur club would be one of them undfer the system you and others advocate.. It casued a long lasting damging problem in the game the effects of wich some clubs are attempting to recover from. Sport is all sorts of things

the richest clubs will get the best players just like always

we had parachute payments before and ouldn't afford them. It under the system you and others are in favour of the yo yo clubs will go down one year, recieve a parachute payment, go up the next and so on: complete waste of cash.
'periodic elevation'? we have this now. many people at your club vociferously and repeatedly consider it immoral, unfair, a joke, a farce, and laughing stock.

You still haven't explained how expansion teams will figure in any kind of planned way. Also how in one post you want thre game 'evening out' and in another you don't.
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#587 thirteenthman

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:59 PM

20 teams sharing the same money is a non starter, clearly a better / different tv deal is needed and assumes that Sky, BT or whoever will pay for the 2nd division rights.


I'd agree that 20 teams sharing the current Sky money is a none starter, as the teams who would make up this top 10 SL would never agree to a drop in their share. And why should they? After all, it's those clubs Sky are paying big bucks to show. Which brings us to the biggest problem with this whole idea. Sky aren't interested in paying for 2nd tier RL. No matter what way you dress the 2nd tier up, call it SL2 or whatever, it's still the second tier. Why would Sky suddenly want to pay large amounts of money to fund a fully pro set up for a level of RL that it decided it wasn't worth paying a relatively small amount of money for only 2 years ago? Turning the top teams in the Championship fully pro isn't going to make them suddenly more attractive to TV viewers or advertisers, which would be the only reason Sky, or anyone else, would be prepared to stump up the money to achieve it.

And I'd agree with the earlier comments about how any proposal like this simply shifts the problems of how to go from semi pro RL to fully pro RL further down the ladder. It's not that long ago that Featherstone were in the 3rd tier (2007). If this idea had happened then, they would've missed out on SL2. It's easy to say that nobody other than the top teams in the Championship want to be in SL, but given financial backing, I'm sure there'd be plenty more teams down the chain who'd love a shot at it as well. But what happens to them?

#588 Ponterover

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:01 PM

I didn't say you did say it was perfect.

I'm very worried about yo yo teams, and there's a good chance that yur club would be one of them undfer the system you and others advocate.. It casued a long lasting damging problem in the game the effects of wich some clubs are attempting to recover from. Sport is all sorts of things

the richest clubs will get the best players just like always

we had parachute payments before and ouldn't afford them. It under the system you and others are in favour of the yo yo clubs will go down one year, recieve a parachute payment, go up the next and so on: complete waste of cash.
'periodic elevation'? we have this now. many people at your club vociferously and repeatedly consider it immoral, unfair, a joke, a farce, and laughing stock.

You still haven't explained how expansion teams will figure in any kind of planned way. Also how in one post you want thre game 'evening out' and in another you don't.


erm, in the other thread i never said i wanted it evening out, I merely pointed out the cap has not achieved it.

i'm not keen on periodic elevation, but i do recognise that it's probably the best way at the moment to move from semi-pro to pro status (p&r though is a must between two pro leagues).

expansion teams come into the 2nd div of pro RL by whatever method chosen, the point is that's it's a less challenging financial environment in which to establish themselves. That has to be better.

#589 Ponterover

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:04 PM

I'd agree that 20 teams sharing the current Sky money is a none starter, as the teams who would make up this top 10 SL would never agree to a drop in their share. And why should they? After all, it's those clubs Sky are paying big bucks to show. Which brings us to the biggest problem with this whole idea. Sky aren't interested in paying for 2nd tier RL. No matter what way you dress the 2nd tier up, call it SL2 or whatever, it's still the second tier. Why would Sky suddenly want to pay large amounts of money to fund a fully pro set up for a level of RL that it decided it wasn't worth paying a relatively small amount of money for only 2 years ago? Turning the top teams in the Championship fully pro isn't going to make them suddenly more attractive to TV viewers or advertisers, which would be the only reason Sky, or anyone else, would be prepared to stump up the money to achieve it.

And I'd agree with the earlier comments about how any proposal like this simply shifts the problems of how to go from semi pro RL to fully pro RL further down the ladder. It's not that long ago that Featherstone were in the 3rd tier (2007). If this idea had happened then, they would've missed out on SL2. It's easy to say that nobody other than the top teams in the Championship want to be in SL, but given financial backing, I'm sure there'd be plenty more teams down the chain who'd love a shot at it as well. But what happens to them?


Everybody assumes Sky won't want a pro 2nd div, based on them not wanting a semi-pro 2nd tier. Ther are two entirely different things.

Has anyone asked them?

#590 thirteenthman

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:20 PM

Everybody assumes Sky won't want a pro 2nd div, based on them not wanting a semi-pro 2nd tier. Ther are two entirely different things.

Has anyone asked them?


From the looks of this thread, I'd say a lot of people seem to be assuming that Sky or someone else would want to fund a fully pro 2nd tier. From the point of view of a TV company, how is a fully pro 2nd tier much different to what we have now? It's still not the 'big' teams, and all the best players will still be in the top division, so I'm genuinely intrigued how from Sky's point of view it would be 'entirely different'.

#591 thundergaz

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 06:29 PM

From the looks of this thread, I'd say a lot of people seem to be assuming that Sky or someone else would want to fund a fully pro 2nd tier. From the point of view of a TV company, how is a fully pro 2nd tier much different to what we have now? It's still not the 'big' teams, and all the best players will still be in the top division, so I'm genuinely intrigued how from Sky's point of view it would be 'entirely different'.


You are right and I personally think SL2 was a myth anyway. I mean who would make up SL2 with a mil salary cap? People said 3 or 4 from SL ok I will give you them but some of them are struggling to pay the mil now. Then people said Fev.leigh. Fax and Sheffield. No chance only Fev and maybe fax could afford the mil the eagles couldn't because of their crowds and it looks like Leigh are struggling financially too. So that gives you maybe 6 who would be the other 4? Toulouse maybe( that's a big maybe) and then who? No other team could afford it at this present time so I don't see how you could have a SL2 to be honest.

#592 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:21 PM

Sl should be pushing clubs to improve, but not pushing them so they are struggling for me is happening. If we are to have a change, then lets do things properly and do things that can help all levels not just certain clubs and SL. I would hope any major changes should be made with a proper transparent review in conjunction with Players, Clubs, Coaches Fans as well as Sponsors. What do they want to see and how best can we achieve it for the benefit of everybody, not just a select few. If clubs want to be in Sl or have a SL 1 and 2 then they must agree to meet certain standards. It should not just be all about first team rugby and playing at the top table.

For me, clubs must run a reserve side or U21s with option of 5 over age players to help players recover from injury etc. Then U19 and U17s. If Featherstone, Halifax etc who are part time can manage this, then a Full Time club should. The Standards need to be raised. Maybe a set minimum must be set a side for a sl or SL 1 side to run academy rugby and properly invest in it. DRs/ Twinning can still happen but only for players under 23 and a max of 4 at any one championshipclub

QUALIFIED People to do things like Marketing, Business Development and running the club on a day to day basis. Using Ex players with little or no experience, is often just a cheap way to do things and in my opinion, why certain clubs are not well run in a number areas. Yes look after people, but lets do things properly and get them trained and get experience first, not just give them a job title as seems to be the case at times.

I would like to see the RFL have more power and telling the clubs this is what we want and expect after the review. You have to agree to meeting the standards or you will have to play in the Championship. Clubs understandably only think of themselves and not what is best for the game. Maybe every 2 or 3 years Clubs will be reviewed and if they fail to meet the minimum standards outlined can lose their place in Sl (1 or 2). The review should be open on all clubs on what they are good and bad on. If a Championship team wish to apply for SL then they can but again must meet the standards and the RFL show them openly on the points they are good or bad on. No more hiding behind closed doors.

Regarding the Salary Cap maybe we should go back to the percentage rule instead of a set minimum. Why should Leeds or Wigan for example be hampered by a set amount because others cant afford it? If clubs know that say they can spend 50 or 60% of their income on the salary maybe they would try much harder and bringing in more money from various sources.

I heard Steve Mcnamara on the internet radio and he said theres only 2500 or so Under 14s play RL in the UK. The clubs should be more involved in working with amateur teams in helping them develop youngsters. Maybe they should have a Development officer(s) working not just in the schools, but also working with the amateur clubs and District Leagues to get more youngsters playing and helping with the quality of training given. The RFL AND clubs need to do more.

Whter we have a SL with 10,12 or 14 teams or 2 leagues of 10 is not that important. What is important is that the game benefits at various levels. What is important is that clubs and the public feel there is transparency and sticking to what has been said. What is important is that fans feel they have a real chance and that they can be looked at fairly and treated as such should they wish to enter Sl or SL 2. I dont feel many fans at Fev, Halifax, Leigh etc feel they have been treated fairly in regards to Sl licences especially when you see how Bradford, Crusaders, Salford etc were passed as OK when clearly they were not and questions must be asked to whether they earned the right to stay in SL or even been accepted.

#593 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:25 PM

erm, in the other thread i never said i wanted it evening out, I merely pointed out the cap has not achieved it.

i'm not keen on periodic elevation, but i do recognise that it's probably the best way at the moment to move from semi-pro to pro status (p&r though is a must between two pro leagues).

expansion teams come into the 2nd div of pro RL by whatever method chosen, the point is that's it's a less challenging financial environment in which to establish themselves. That has to be better.


well it sure looked like it but never mind

why is it immoralunfair etc etc to have 'periodic elevation' to SL now, but not in your new comp?You've said yourself that tis is what sport is about(personally I don't think it is). Why is PR a must between SLs 1 and 2? we've seen the damage it does to clubs.

You are arguing for a structure tat you yourself probably can't b financedeven if there was any actual point to it.

There are things wrong with SL right now although I think they relate to the way certain clubs have been run rather than the structure.

If your club makes it to SL viatyhe licensing system will you think it unfair and immoral like some of yurt fellow Featherstone fans on here do?
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#594 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:25 PM

From the looks of this thread, I'd say a lot of people seem to be assuming that Sky or someone else would want to fund a fully pro 2nd tier. From the point of view of a TV company, how is a fully pro 2nd tier much different to what we have now? It's still not the 'big' teams, and all the best players will still be in the top division, so I'm genuinely intrigued how from Sky's point of view it would be 'entirely different'.


exactly
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#595 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:27 PM

You are right and I personally think SL2 was a myth anyway. I mean who would make up SL2 with a mil salary cap? People said 3 or 4 from SL ok I will give you them but some of them are struggling to pay the mil now. Then people said Fev.leigh. Fax and Sheffield. No chance only Fev and maybe fax could afford the mil the eagles couldn't because of their crowds and it looks like Leigh are struggling financially too. So that gives you maybe 6 who would be the other 4? Toulouse maybe( that's a big maybe) and then who? No other team could afford it at this present time so I don't see how you could have a SL2 to be honest.


under auto prom and reg : which so many people crave clubs would go up whether they could afford it or not. Wht are your thoughts on this?
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#596 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 10:29 PM

Everybody assumes Sky won't want a pro 2nd div, based on them not wanting a semi-pro 2nd tier. Ther are two entirely different things.

Has anyone asked them?


well its a bit of a no brainer. They would be paying more money for little or no return.
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#597 thundergaz

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 12:18 AM

under auto prom and reg : which so many people crave clubs would go up whether they could afford it or not. Wht are your thoughts on this?


To be honest angelo I'm torn. I know most clubs outside the SL couldn't afford to be in SL but also some could (not many though 2 at most at the minute). But for the game I would love P&R to come back.For my team not so much as all the hard work we have done to get us in a position for SL would all hinge on that one season. I also do think the yo-yo effect damages teams financially. I don't know of a good way to get round it to be honest to introduce P&R because like I said earlier the 2nd tier SL thing wouldn't work at the minute because only a couple or less teams could fund a million salary cap. But it would have to be a million to help stop the yo-yo effect. I do however think that if P&R is introduced and policed properly it could work. If a team wants SL from the lower league they should show financially that they could with stand it. IE maybe have to show they could survive it for 3 years at least and not just the one.( But like I've said I have no idea how to re-introduce P&R without hurting the teams financially). Could we survive SL? Yes I think we could. Could we survive SL without the 3 year grace? I don't know I'm sceptical maybe who knows. But to be fair if we couldn't no other champ club could at this present time.

Edited by thundergaz, 24 March 2013 - 01:01 AM.


#598 The Parksider

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 07:59 AM

Everybody assumes Sky won't want a pro 2nd div, based on them not wanting a semi-pro 2nd tier. Ther are two entirely different things.

Has anyone asked them?


But they aren't two different things?

All SL2 would be in reality is SKY giving 150 second tier semi professionals money to turn professional.

I haven't a clue why they would do that? (both SKY and semi pros with a proper job)

Mainly because I have followed the TV negotiations as best possible and every time they meet the RFL push as hard as they can for as much as they can. I've never known negotiators do anything else, I was a union man for years (trade not RU) and we tried every angle and every argument to force every penny. The RFL even walked away from SKY once to force things and it didn't work.

I assume that IF Gatcliffe was really serious about this proposal then it will be put to SKY, and here's the rub.

The CEO of one of the top SL clubs talks about the possibility of a more inclusive format, championing the "people's choice" of P & R, but doesn't talk about how it will be paid for nor is challenged on that because the answer is simple - we'll have to put it to SKY.

Then if it doesn't happen at least those nice clubs at the top of SL can say they tried.

Edited by The Parksider, 24 March 2013 - 08:27 AM.


#599 The Parksider

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:26 AM

I know most clubs outside the SL couldn't afford to be in SL but also some could (not many though 2 at most at the minute).


None of them can.

The original requirement for an SL club was that is was properly resourced and staffed and the estimate was that would take £4,000,000 a year at least. Warrington turn over £5,500,000 and Catalans turn over £6,000,000.

The requirement for a CC club to apply for Superleague was a turnover NOW of at least £1,000,000.

Most of them don't reach that figure, I believe Rovers may just get past that. IMHO it leaves championship clubs across the board short of £3,000,000 a year to financially compete in Superleague.

Now of course if SKY give a club £1,200,000 a year that helps. But there is still a massive hole in the budget for not only every Championship club to fill but some "so called" SL clubs too.

That could be done by crowds going up, but they have to go up to 8,000 if you have the right stadium that can maximise the income from fans other wise you need 10,000 to break even. These are figures from Salford, Widnes, Bradford, Fartown and HKR BTW I noted them down. I didn't make them up.

Salfords first season in Barton saw 5192 not 8000 and that was too much for Wilkinson and Clague so they walked away and the club nearly died on the spot.

Widnes' first season in SL saw 6046. It's a loss maker but O'Connor battles on

Bradfords crowds dropped alarmingly to 8436 in 2010 part of the reason they went bust.

Fartown's return to SL saw them on loss making crowds of 4722 this last four years despite heavy investment from Mr. Davey they flatline at an average of a loss making 7,500, not too bad though.

HKR's return saw crowds at 8544 and the good times were back. They haven't kicked on and that has meant Mr, Hudgell had to make up the losses, but last years 7,700 was disappointing for him and he said he could not go on making up those losses.

Castleford have a chairman reported to put in sums like £500,000 to keep them afloat. Crowds are around 7,000, but financially they cannot hack SL and are openly admitting this.

Halifax applied for SL but when asked how they would fund it they couldn't provide a plausible answer.

Not only can't any Championship club as a business afford Superleague nor can several Superleague clubs.

So beyond the few clubs who get the crowds the only entry ticket is a rich man prepared to bankroll his club by very large amounts of money season upon season. Messrs Nahaboo and Chapman will need to dig deep.

#600 thundergaz

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 09:58 AM

So beyond the few clubs who get the crowds the only entry ticket is a rich man prepared to bankroll his club by very large amounts of money season upon season. Messrs Nahaboo and Chapman will need to dig deep.


Parky not arguing with any of that. As fans are be all and end all of a club. But I will give you the right info on mr Campbell and feisal. Yes they will have to dig deep but it just won't be them mr Campbell and feisal have said numerous times their is investors waiting in the wings too to join the club. They haven't come on board yet because like feisal as said we don't need them yet but they are prepared to help bankroll Fev along with mr Campbell and feisal to make us a top 6 team in SL. Whether we will be or not who knows but ambition like that as to be rewarded IMO. Because most go up and make the numbers up my club as said repeatedly they don't want to go up to make the numbers up.




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