Jump to content


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Two tier SL on the way


  • Please log in to reply
723 replies to this topic

#101 chuffer

chuffer
  • Coach
  • 3,591 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:32 PM

Then maybe the finances to compete in the SL currently are too much for all but a handful of clubs.


Wasn't that exactly what that recent documentary (shown on Look North or whatever) found when the accountant chap went through all the SL clubs finances?....

#102 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,786 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:33 PM

Well London put 50 on Warrington and Huddersfield put 45 on St Helens and Hull got stuffed at Leeds already. This is nothing new.


And that happens every week, does it ?

Look no further than Leigh to see the damage a season long string of defeats can do.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#103 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,554 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

And that happens every week, does it ?

Look no further than Leigh to see the damage a season long string of defeats can do.


But if you're talking of putting possibly four teams from the Championship into the SL2 then the chances are that there won't be a season of floggings as six games would be against teams they are on par with, dependent on closed season recruitment..

rldfsignature.jpg


#104 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,228 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:39 PM

You shouldn't state that funding isn't there as though it is fact.


So take me to the part of the statement Gatcliffe made that explained how the two tier SL would be funded then?

If he fails to put the figures to the idea then one cannot properly debate such an idea?

Without funding details being part of any presentation for any business project it merely ends up being a fantasy.

And so it comes to pass we are flying off to 24 club conferences Where Leigh and Wigan will be a close run thing, and an extra 250 professional RL players will appear "just like that"....

Edited by The Parksider, 12 March 2013 - 02:41 PM.


#105 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,554 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:44 PM

Leeds and Wigan etc would have ALL the best players, the middle teams would feed off the scraps and the leigh's and barrows would have no professional players to buy - there is a player shortage that you conveniently forget.


That's an altogether different thread.


When Bradford had all the best stars and salford didn't they put 94 on Salford.


I seem to recall Bradford shipping ninety points in a Challenge Cup semi final too.

Edited by deluded pom?, 12 March 2013 - 02:45 PM.

rldfsignature.jpg


#106 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,188 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:45 PM

Hopefully, he's privvy to more sensitive information than we are (one assumes that he's also a board member at SLE). Sky or someone else might already be interested for all we know.

Either that or he's planting a seed with our major financial backer


Or he is talking ####.

I know where my money is.

#107 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,786 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:53 PM

But if you're talking of putting possibly four teams from the Championship into the SL2 then the chances are that there won't be a season of floggings as six games would be against teams they are on par with, dependent on closed season recruitment..


An altogether different proposal. The above was on the Conference proposal.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#108 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,478 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:57 PM

Sadly the devil IS in the detail IMHO.

If we had 20 teams in Superleague conferences all able to spend up to full salary cap only the big clubs would spend it in full.

Leeds and Wigan etc would have ALL the best players, the middle teams would feed off the scraps and the leigh's and barrows would have no professional players to buy - there is a player shortage that you conveniently forget.

Leigh currently spend £235,000 on players, Barrow less.

When Bradford had all the best stars and salford didn't they put 94 on Salford.

There's now few Aussies to even things up. We have 350 professionals in a 14 club Superleague.

In a 20 club Superleague we will need 500.

In this fantasy world of conferences there may be some money but there won't be the players......


The current SL teams presumably have the players. Of the probable 6 teams needed to make up the numbers to 20 teams, three and a half have at least three quarters of the players they need. There are not as many players required as all that. There are 3 soon to be 4 new teams in Championship 2. That could be a source of new players. the DR players who are currently being yo yoed between SL and Championship clubs might be another soruce of players. The continued advance of the game in the non heartlands areas of the UK and the new countries in the international sphere, Jamaica, Canada, USA, Serbia, Russia and Africa etc might be sources for players. Numerous NRL players with UK heritage exempting them from visas are no doubt out there to be coveted also.

From somewhere, the players will be found

#109 Griff

Griff
  • Coach
  • 7,786 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:58 PM

The current SL teams presumably have the players. Of the probable 6 teams needed to make up the numbers to 20 teams, three and a half have at least three quarters of the players they need.
From somewhere, the players will be found


Good luck with that.
"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

#110 chuffer

chuffer
  • Coach
  • 3,591 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:00 PM

The current SL teams presumably have the players.


quite....I thought this was about retaining the talent we have and stopping them from being lured to the NRL or Yawnion

#111 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,228 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:07 PM

Maybe the finances to compete in the SL currently are too much for all but a handful of clubs. Is it that there are too many who can't afford to be in SL or too few that can afford to be in SL?


Nice question, my view (that is not a fact but is a humble opinion based on reading all I can that's said by the power brokers and looking at all the information published) is that Leeds, Wigan, Wire and Saints rule the roost. After that Huddersfield are consistently heavily funded and Hull and Catalans also seem to make up the "handful". Bradford weren't saved for nothing and Toulouse were courted and spouting just how rich they would be in SL.

In terms of who can't afford to be in Superleague, I think (not as a fact but as a humble opinion based on reading all I can that's said by the power brokers and looking at all the information published)all you need to do is look at the Championship.

Look at how low the crowds are?

Look at the ageing demographic of those falling crowds??

Look at the way they are morphing into "A" teams???

Maybe nobody can afford to be in the Championship. The division of death tag used to belong to CC1.

I don't think anyone who ends up in the second tier is going to be saved from the problems it brings by simply calling it "SL2"

I can't see any funding system in which the top ten already rich clubs continue getting hundreds of thousands of pounds more than the rest AND can inject hundreds of thousand of pounds of more private money will do anything to create evenness between the divisions.

Wigan currrently are given £1.2m by sky, If Leigh get £680K from SKY with 2 x 10's and Wigan are allowed to spend another £400K of private money on players, you still have a discrepancy in spending power.

Wigan's turnover will gallop off towards £6M whilst Leigh's will be able to secure their business but won't be able to afford a Superleague team, there aren't the players for an extra six superleague clubs to buy.

Edited by The Parksider, 12 March 2013 - 03:12 PM.


#112 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,228 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:11 PM

The continued advance of the game in the non heartlands areas of the UK and the new countries in the international sphere, Jamaica, Canada, USA, Serbia, Russia and Africa etc might be sources for players.

From somewhere, the players will be found


Forget Africa etc.

They will IMHO pay semi pro's professional wages of course. However many won't want to go professional so the teams the "extra SL" clubs end up paying big wages to may well not have the quality to go on the same pitch as a Wigan.

Edited by The Parksider, 12 March 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#113 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,877 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:13 PM

So take me to the part of the statement Gatcliffe made that explained how the two tier SL would be funded then?

If he fails to put the figures to the idea then one cannot properly debate such an idea?

Without funding details being part of any presentation for any business project it merely ends up being a fantasy.

And so it comes to pass we are flying off to 24 club conferences Where Leigh and Wigan will be a close run thing, and an extra 250 professional RL players will appear "just like that"....

We aren't discussing a detailed business case. We are discussing an idea in principle.

#114 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,877 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:16 PM

When you talk about SL 1 and SL 2 you are doing the same thing or an alternative view could be that you are demoting four SL teams.

I think the best description would absolutely be that you are demoting 4 teams. You wouldn't however be demoting them to the current 2nd tier, which has an extremely low salary cap, as well as a handful of teams who I'd suggest are not aiming for Super League.

In effect you are creating a stronger 2nd tier, sitting under a stronger top tier.

#115 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,228 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:17 PM

We aren't discussing a detailed business case. We are discussing an idea in principle.


Lets agree to disagree, I can't even begin to discuss anything as a serious proposal without some sort of explanation of the obvious problem of funding six more superleague clubs when the game is in a financial mire and there aren't the players to go round.

#116 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,228 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:21 PM

In effect you are creating a stronger 2nd tier, sitting under a stronger top tier.


Now that I can agree with. Wether it will make the second tier clubs strong enough to avoid closure or strong enough to be able to compete in the top tier is the outstanding question for me.

#117 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,877 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:22 PM

Lets agree to disagree, I can't even begin to discuss anything as a serious proposal without some sort of explanation of the obvious problem of funding six more superleague clubs when the game is in a financial mire and there aren't the players to go round.

Funding - already been explained that the 2nd tier could benefit from £560k per club, based on current levels. That's a decent starting point. You can make whatever rules up you want, you could split the money how you want etc. there are all sorts of solutions, you don;t really want to discuss them at all.

Players - there are enough players. They may not be the quality that you want, but they are there. The best 20 clubs will have the best 500 players. That's really very very simple.

#118 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,228 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:27 PM

Funding - already been explained that the 2nd tier could benefit from £560k per club, based on current levels. That's a decent starting point. You can make whatever rules up you want, you could split the money how you want etc. there are all sorts of solutions, you don;t really want to discuss them at all.

Players - there are enough players. They may not be the quality that you want, but they are there. The best 20 clubs will have the best 500 players. That's really very very simple.


Funding - the top tier will benefit by £1.2M and several hundred thousand more of directors money, and much bigger crowds. The gap remains massive.

Players - the best 250 players will all be in the top tier, in the bottom tier semi pros will be "converted" to pro's. Promoted clubs won't have SL1 quality teams.

#119 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 5,478 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 03:36 PM

Forget Africa etc.

They will IMHO pay semi pro's professional wages of course. However many won't want to go professional so the teams the "extra SL" clubs end up paying big wages to may well not have the quality to go on the same pitch as a Wigan.


Forget Wigan. they have been a dominant team thrashing most of the other teams for over a century, Nothing new there then.

However, the new clubs should be able to compete with and beat, their newly elected peers from the Champiionship and, in addition, Widnes, Castleford, London with an occasional shock reult over Wakefield and Hull KR. There are enough wins out there available to ensure that these teams do not remain winless and this will be just the start. Once in SL, how many Dr Koukash's or Glovers, or Davys are out there who might fancy funding or, at least , assisting with funding, of a SL team

And, as for " Forget Africa". the RU's Kenya 7's teams rapidly came from nowhere the be a top level outfit and those athletes are poor and hungry and very suited to our game. Leeds currently have a german player from a very poor standard league. There are sources of players out there.

#120 Dave T

Dave T
  • Coach
  • 14,877 posts

Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

Funding - the top tier will benefit by £1.2M and several hundred thousand more of directors money, and much bigger crowds. The gap remains massive.

Players - the best 250 players will all be in the top tier, in the bottom tier semi pros will be "converted" to pro's. Promoted clubs won't have SL1 quality teams.


Funding - The gap will remain large. I don't think anybody claimed otherwise. It will be a hell of a lot smaller than current though, which probably makes P&R impossible.

Players - This is the same as any league with P&R.

Nobody is saying that these things would suddenly make everything perfect, but it does provide some advantages.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users