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(Renamed thread) What RL can learn from the union 6 Nations


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#41 JohnM

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:19 AM

pure speculation with no evidence base does not make a good business plan, though.

So, apart from the rules of the game and the lack of annual automatic points based P and R, what else is wrong, how would you put it right and even more importantly, who would you get to do it and why?

Edited by JohnM, 18 March 2013 - 10:21 AM.


#42 Johnoco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:22 AM

If France could turn us over 30% of the time or at least lose in a close game, the crowds would be far higher. RL fans want to see games with the result in doubt. Nowt wrong with that. Its our own fault for fostering rules which lend to few shocks.

So why do Wales and Ireland fans turn up against the All Blacks? Look at their record.
I'm fairly sure some people are put off by potential one sided games but even when everything is equal fans still rarely back Internationals in big numbers, nor in the main, have they ever.

Edited by Johnoco, 18 March 2013 - 10:34 AM.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#43 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 10:38 AM

Can't agree there Wellsy, it seems to be a uniquely RL thing whereby significant numbers of fans (as opposed to the odd person that you may get in football or cricket or RU) actively ridicule and boycott both big RL club games and their international side.

I think you will find there are many people in many sports that openly ridicule it just as much.

Do RL fans "boycott" big games? Were they ever going to go? What interest do they have in it? What so they get out of it?

Too many people just think "well it's their team/country playing the sport they like. Why wouldn't they want to go?" You've got to be a pretty diehard fan to follow that line of thinking, and those that do struggle to comprehend why others don't think like them.
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#44 superten

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:03 AM

the problem is theres little room in the season for internationals. The season is already to long and coaches and players dont want to play midweek matches which is the only window available. What needed is to get all groups together club owners fans players international officials and our tv and media partners and map out a season where we please as many as possible . Lets face if sky wanted it the rl and clubs would sort it as its sky money running the game now.I personally think our league season is too long we should be starting season in march not feb,myself I would start season in april and end at end of september but thats not likely as it only gives rl 26 week season.
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#45 Johnoco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:11 AM

I think you will find there are many people in many sports that openly ridicule it just as much.

Do RL fans "boycott" big games? Were they ever going to go? What interest do they have in it? What so they get out of it?

Too many people just think "well it's their team/country playing the sport they like. Why wouldn't they want to go?" You've got to be a pretty diehard fan to follow that line of thinking, and those that do struggle to comprehend why others don't think like them.

No, the ratio of boycotters/non attendees is way higher in RL than other sports. The thinking seems to go like this: 'we're playing France, what's the point we'll win' then 'we're playing Australia, what's the point we'll lose?'
If we can get 70k+ on a good weekend at SL games, why do we usually struggle to get 10-20k for a game against Aus-NZ? Even allowing for the fact that of those 70k some will be casual fans we should be getting bigger crowds to the Internationals. Lets see how the WC goes because there can be no 'didn't know about it in time' excuses given here.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#46 Derwent

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:17 AM

So why do Wales and Ireland fans turn up against the All Blacks? Look at their record.


You can't compare RU to RL like that. For the majority of RU's history, certainly until the advent of honest professionalism, RU fans (and indeed their clubs) were conditioned into thinking that Internationals were the game's lifeblood and took priority over everything else. The annual club trips to internationals were the highlight of the year for many RU clubs, even today the RFU's ticketing distribution revolves heavily around the clubs - I don't know what its like now but a few years ago there was a 3 year waiting list for tickets at Workington RFC from their annual allocation.

That is a mindset they have developed over more than a century and its one we can't even hope to develop. Imagine a scenario in RL where the RFL says to our top clubs "we are going to play a series of international friendlies during the season for which we will be taking your top players away, while your league programme carries on" there'd be hell to pay. But it happens in RU with the Autumn international friendlies and they accept it because they are conditioned to it and recognise the financial implications of it.

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#47 Severus

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:23 AM

Why not do a secret poll between RU and RL fans (i.e. the entire Rugby spectrum) and ask what they would like to see in the perfect game of Rugby (to play or watch) - with the following topics:

-ideal points for a try
-ideal points for a penalty
-Ideal points for a drop goal
-whether scrums should be competitive or even exist
-whether lineouts are wothwhile in the modern era
-how the game should restart after a tackle
-ideal number of players
-ideal number of subs and interchanges
-winter or summer?
-whether a closer game of rugby is preferred at the expense of tries/open play
-retirement distance of defending players when ball is recycled

I'm guessing that the answers would show a split into roughly the same proportions of RU and RL fans that took part. What would it achieve?
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#48 Johnoco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:24 AM

I won't disagree Derwent but when all is said and done, they still turn up expecting to lose. We just don't.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#49 JohnM

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:25 AM

but we've been playing internationals for over 100 years so why aren't we conditioned to it, too? well, there is the supporter demographic for a start, plus RL's profile in schools over that same 100 years or so.

there was a temporary blip with good attendances in the late 80s early 90s but overall, the story of RL internationals in the UK has been one of sad indifference.

#50 Derwent

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:40 AM

but we've been playing internationals for over 100 years so why aren't we conditioned to it, too? well, there is the supporter demographic for a start, plus RL's profile in schools over that same 100 years or so.

there was a temporary blip with good attendances in the late 80s early 90s but overall, the story of RL internationals in the UK has been one of sad indifference.


Its one of life's strange dichotomies, the comparison between RL and RU and how it operates.

The game which historically was associated with the middle/upper classes is run on a kind of socialist philosophy where fans/clubs make sacrifices in the best interests of all concerned in the game.

The game which historically was associated with the working classes and indeed founded on socialist/workers rights principles is run on a form of elitism and self-interest for those at the top, with very little in the way of collectivity.

Strange really.

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#51 Brisvegan

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 11:42 AM

The only thing RL can possibly take from the 6N is the example of Italy: expansion teams are a long term proposition, stick with them. That's it! It's such a blindingly obvious point that if the RL powers that be don't know it already
it what are they for? There is no point sticking pins in the map, even for strategically logical reasons, if the risks of failure are too high. The really important thing about expansion, demographic or geographic, is to play to your strengths.
In Italy union had certain strengths:
1. Fans with deep pockets (as ever).
2. Ethnic connections to Argentina
3. Rome, a nice city break for said fans with a few quid.
Apart from that I won't waste anymore of my diminishing years thinking about union. It's just so depressing in so many ways - not least that so many otherwise well adjusted people like it. If only those blazered buffoons in 1895 had shown a modicum of their self proclaimed sense of moral rectitude; you know, let their less well off players be compensated for lost earnings, professional "rugby" today would be near as damn it rugby league.
And there'd be a "heritage" XV version for amateurs. Probably. :D

#52 deluded pom?

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:24 PM

If we can get 70k+ on a good weekend at SL games, why do we usually struggle to get 10-20k for a game against Aus-NZ? Even allowing for the fact that of those 70k some will be casual fans we should be getting bigger crowds to the Internationals.


Just playing devil's advocate here John but there have been games at Wembley for the England football team that have not sold out. Bearing in mind the combined attendances at EPL games then isn't that just as poor an effort as only 20% of RL fans turning up for an international match? Manchester United fans would be able to fill Wembley on their own wouldn't they?

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#53 Johnoco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:33 PM

Just playing devil's advocate here John but there have been games at Wembley for the England football team that have not sold out. Bearing in mind the combined attendances at EPL games then isn't that just as poor an effort as only 20% of RL fans turning up for an international match? Manchester United fans would be able to fill Wembley on their own wouldn't they?

Fair point but generally all England games do sell out. And if England were to announce a game at (insert stadium except wembley) it would sell out in a flash. Even allowing for the respective popularity of the games, we simply don't have that mentality of 'must be there' for our big games.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#54 JohnM

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:38 PM

they do, of course.

England v Brazil match report by the way, attendance for that game was 87, 453 but Brazil are FIFA ranked 18th, behind Switzerland, Ecuador and Greece

The lowest crowd of 57,897 at the new Wembley came against Andorra in June 2009 , with the figure affected by a tube strike.

#55 gingerjon

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:38 PM

The only thing RL can possibly take from the 6N is the example of Italy: expansion teams are a long term proposition, stick with them. That's it!


RU hasn't stuck with places though. Spain were the original members of the women's 6N, they've now gone. At the time that Italy were getting strong enough to seriously worry (if not regularly beat) the Five Nations RU was also at the same level in Romania with Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands also showing signs of life. Are there any serious plans on any level to expand the Six Nations to the Seven Nations? I sincerely doubt it.

In the southern hemisphere it's taken Argentina over a decade to get into a tournament at all. And in that time it seems (although I'm happy for someone to correct me) that international rugby has not particularly advanced for the Pacific nations nor any of the also-rans from south America like Uruguay. They all do have more regular matches though which is something RL must find a way to implement.
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#56 deluded pom?

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:40 PM

Fair point but generally all England games do sell out. And if England were to announce a game at (insert stadium except wembley) it would sell out in a flash. Even allowing for the respective popularity of the games, we simply don't have that mentality of 'must be there' for our big games.


Then the argument is that given the total number of Football fans in England would twenty per cent of them turn out to see England play Norway (for example) if there was a stadium big enough to hold them? I doubt it very much. The other argument about using a stadium outside of Wembley isn't really relevant as all games, are and were before the rebuild, held in London. Obviously a smaller provincial ground would sell out if they had the chance to host an England game.

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#57 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:53 PM

No, the ratio of boycotters/non attendees is way higher in RL than other sports. The thinking seems to go like this: 'we're playing France, what's the point we'll win' then 'we're playing Australia, what's the point we'll lose?'

Have you attempted to answer the questions you're asking?
What is the point? Some people have different reasons and these need addressing if they don't see a point. Some want close games, give them another reason to come.
Some want to win. Give them another reason.
Some want cheap tickets. Justify the price instead of reducing it.
Some think its cheap and lacking value. Offer them more for more money.

We can sit and blame the fans all we want, but it won't achieve a thing. If you're not giving then something they want, it's not their fault!

The ones that will always moan aren't fans at the end of the day. They were never going to come, so can't class them as "boycotting". If you can't attempt to cater for people's grievances,

If we can get 70k+ on a good weekend at SL games, why do we usually struggle to get 10-20k for a game against Aus-NZ?

Do we struggle to get over 20k?

Even allowing for the fact that of those 70k some will be casual fans we should be getting bigger crowds to the Internationals. Lets see how the WC goes because there can be no 'didn't know about it in time' excuses given here.

We don't have a regular competitive international schedule. There is little structure. And they're always announced late (except the WC). This takes a lot if momentum away from anything.

If you're just going to say "well the fans should support it better" then you're NEVER going to go forward. Why should they? And why aren't they?
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#58 Johnoco

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:14 PM

Wells, its not a new phenomena though is it? International RL has generally always been poorly supported, I can't answer that in one post.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#59 Just to be clear

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:46 PM

Do we struggle to get over 20k?


Just to be clear, the last test series between Great Britain and New Zealand in 2007 attracted only 16,522 in Huddersfield, 20,324 in Hull, and 21,235 in Wigan. An average for the series of 19,360.

#60 Dave T

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:54 PM

People who say things like 'just stick with it' are looking at things far too simplistically. Rugby League does not have an abundance of money that they can invest in things that are costing a fortune.

I think Union does some things well, I like the Autumn International series, and I think this is one area that we could replicate. We sort of do it with the 4Nations, but even this can be a little random without a mass amount of strategic thinking and planning.

I'd look to get touring teams over here every year. A New Zealand touring team should be a massive draw, they aren't yet, but we should be looking to play them in a 2/3 Test Series with some exciting venues selected.

There is no reason why NZ couldn;t come over and play:

1. GF Winners (week after Grand Final)
2. Wales
3. England Knights
4. England
5. England
6. France

We need to move away from this mentality that the Aussies are the most important thing. Due to us being closer to the Kiwis (the current World Champions) the matches are usually great encounters and staged in the right manner they could do very well. I'd avoid Hudds, Wigan and Hull maybe and look to the likes of Eastlands and a London venue.

I'd also look to get Samoa/PNG/Tonga/Fiji or similar over each Autumn to challenge the other Home Nations, with the odd game against England possibly. I know these things cost, but development of the International game needs to be tried properly or not at all.

One other thing I'd look to do is make sure there are regular games against France - I know we play them regularly now, but nobody ever has any idea when the game will be played, or where. We should have England supporters clubs heading to Paris every Autumn (or in-season) for a Test match.

Union plays on the 'event' feel and social element, we need to stop sneering at that (plenty of comments about the car parks) and embrace it ourselves, as ultimately, people need to enjoy themselves otherwise they won't bother.
With all due respect, is heading over to Hull KR in November for a low-key game really getting the general public excited?




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