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(Renamed thread) What RL can learn from the union 6 Nations


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#121 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:37 PM

I do agree there are other reasons as well, but the 1997 crowd at Wembley for GB v Aus was down to 40k from 65k for the WC 2 years earlier. All that had happened in the meantime was that GB had lost against the Kiwis and had obviously lost in the WC final v the Aussies. The last 4N game at Wembley had a lot of decent promotion, if it was only organisation then this crowd would have been much higher, surely at least at the early 90's Wembley levels?

You're comparing apples with oranges there. The early 90s and early 10s are 20 years apart. There are different obstacles and challenges now facing anyone planning events. Relative to the crowds of the last decade, Wembley was a huge success and almost double the interest and of persisted with could grow and grow. The GF wasn't a sell out from day one, was it?

Also, the 65k was for a RLWC Final. Hardly a fair comparison. It's a completely different event. The event opener at Wembley got 41k.

Fan apathy around international games is a strange thing in RL, although Welsh football also struggles for fans when they struggle.

But most of the big sports have much bigger and better organisation and dedication to their international programme than RL does. I think the apathy towards our international game by the organisers is stranger.

Whilst there has been issues with some of the organisation for the 4N, generally they were advertised well in advance and organised well. I find the venues boring, but that shouldn't stop us filling them for games against NZ and Aus.

I wouldn't call announcing venues and fixtures 2-3 months beforehand "well in advance" to be honest. Anything but, in fact. Why aren't they organised a year in advance so people who are at the current internationals know what's happening next? It's like we make it as difficult as possible for fans to know what's going on.

It's really concerning that there is absolutely no idea what's happening next season internationally.

I agree with much of this, but then if they had arranged the games in the Autumn at Wembley and Cardiff I suspect many would have slated them for playing in front of 10k in empty grounds.

Well that's an argument based on extremes though, isn't it. Nobody would suggest playing at 70k+ grounds, but playing at 10k grounds that are partly knocked down as announcing it a month in advance hardly screams "big event" does it? That's where they apathy begins, not with the fans. It's spread from the poor organisation.

The RFL knew that the NRL players weren't available. Why didn't they organise and announce this after the 4N and promote it for a year? KC was down the road and has a good track record for internationals. Why not build that?
France pulled 14k in Avignon for a friendly versus England. Why not there?
There's no strategy or logic at all. It was like someone had forgotten to do their coursework and rushed to finish it last minute before the deadline!

I'm not sure it is as exclusive as you suggest. If the well organised double header at Wembley had seen 60k there then I'm sure they would have continued with it (although in fairness they have for the WC) - but even 42k was a poor crowd for the effort and presumably cost put in.
Both of these things are issues, it is a vicious circle - the fans won't change first, so it is up to the RFL to change what they are doing.

42k was fairly good considering. They're pretty much having to start from scratc so you can't expect a huge crowd on the back of nothing. And again, announced 3 months beforehand is hardly ideal. It needs to be A LOT earlier.

42k is a great start, and roughly what the first GF got. It needs to be stuck with. I'd rather watch Eng vs Aus at Wembley than a CCF not featuring Hull.
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#122 Dave T

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:47 PM

Wellsy - 3N and 4N games were all arranged much more than 2-3 months in advance.

Last year's series was terribly organised considering we knew about the games well in advance.

#123 deluded pom?

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:50 PM

Wellsy - 3N and 4N games were all arranged much more than 2-3 months in advance.

Last year's series was terribly organised considering we knew about the games well in advance.


IIRC there wasn't too much lead up to the double header being confirmed for Wembley and the game being played.

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#124 Dave T

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 06:53 PM

You are right - tickets were released late - although it was exactly 4 months in advance.

#125 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:19 PM

Wellsy - 3N and 4N games were all arranged much more than 2-3 months in advance.

Last year's series was terribly organised considering we knew about the games well in advance.

4 months in advance is hardly "much more" than 3. It's not enough. The RFL produce event brochuresfor the new season before Xmas. Why aren't these including internationals? Are they not as important?

I say the same about the WCC as well.
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#126 Johnoco

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:38 PM

Come on Wellsy, that sounds like babysitting the fans. 4 months is plenty of time to decide whether you can go or not. What are the RFL to do? Ring us all up individually a year in advance?


You make some fair points but come on...the fans need to back the events.

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#127 Derwent

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:56 PM

The questions on this thread could also apply to other aspects of the game, eg why don't fans attend Challenge Cup games in decent numbers anymore ? IMO much of it is that many fans now see SL as the pinnacle and while this is obviously good for SL it does have a detrimental effect in other areas. The hype around SL, led by Sky, fosters a belief that everything else is somehow inferior and irrelevant. So the success in growing SL has been paid for by a drop off in attendances at Challenge Cup rounds, Play Offs rounds and also Internationals. Then there is the flawed belief that all people who go to watch SL are fans of the game in general - for example I worked in Leeds for a while last year and several people there went to watch Leeds Rhinos regularly but they had absolutely no interest in the wider game or even other SL clubs.
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#128 Johnoco

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:04 PM

But Derwent at least the CC and some lower clubs have had the good crowds in the past, Internationals have never, the odd blip excepted, had this.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

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With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

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#129 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:13 PM

The questions on this thread could also apply to other aspects of the game, eg why don't fans attend Challenge Cup games in decent numbers anymore ? IMO much of it is that many fans now see SL as the pinnacle and while this is obviously good for SL it does have a detrimental effect in other areas. The hype around SL, led by Sky, fosters a belief that everything else is somehow inferior and irrelevant. So the success in growing SL has been paid for by a drop off in attendances at Challenge Cup rounds, Play Offs rounds and also Internationals. Then there is the flawed belief that all people who go to watch SL are fans of the game in general - for example I worked in Leeds for a while last year and several people there went to watch Leeds Rhinos regularly but they had absolutely no interest in the wider game or even other SL clubs.


Yet more factless assertion that boils down to Super League being the big bad wolf.

#130 Derwent

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:16 PM

But Derwent at least the CC and some lower clubs have had the good crowds in the past, Internationals have never, the odd blip excepted, had this.


I don't know what the answer is, I suspect it is a combination of lots of things. For example, in the days of full tours people didn't need to go to internationals to see the Aussies and Kiwis as they could watch them against their own club at their own ground.
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#131 Derwent

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:24 PM

Yet more factless assertion that boils down to Super League being the big bad wolf.


Where have I 'blamed' SL ? It is 100% factual that while SL crowds grew they declined in all other facets of the game in this country. If you believe there is no correlation there then that's your prerogative. It's not a blame game so why try to turn it into one ?
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#132 Dave T

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:29 PM

4 months in advance is hardly "much more" than 3. It's not enough. The RFL produce event brochuresfor the new season before Xmas. Why aren't these including internationals? Are they not as important?

I say the same about the WCC as well.

the brochures usually do include internationals don't they.

I thought it was longer than 4m for Wembley, but you're right it should be longer than that.

#133 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:36 PM

Where have I 'blamed' SL ? It is 100% factual that while SL crowds grew they declined in all other facets of the game in this country. If you believe there is no correlation there then that's your prerogative. It's not a blame game so why try to turn it into one ?


You have to come up with something to even suggest that they are related other than assertion and bias.

It's just more post hoc reasoning, there are many other plausible reasons for the decline that you ignore because you want to.

#134 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:48 PM

Come on Wellsy, that sounds like babysitting the fans. 4 months is plenty of time to decide whether you can go or not. What are the RFL to do? Ring us all up individually a year in advance?


You make some fair points but come on...the fans need to back the events.

Why do the fans NEED to back events? Why should they? What obligation do they have to the events? What's in it for them?

The events NEED fans. Not the other way around.

If the RFL want people to be attracted to their England brand, they've got to give them reasons other than "it's a rugby game and you're from that country". It's not babysitting. It's intelligent event and brand management.

Again, we can sit here and say "the fans should be doing this..." but it achieves NOTHING. It's not a solution, it's an empty statement. Things need to be done, and it's up to the organisers to do it and the fans to respond.

As for historic attendances, it just shows that there have often been problems. We don't have a proper international board being one, unlike other sports with credible international scenes.
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#135 Johnoco

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:52 PM

Won't disagree with a lot of that.

No I don't care if you're if you're into different bands

No cause for so much hatred, I'm just a different man

Pull off that cover, I will too, and learn to understand

With music deep inside we'll make world unity our plan

 

7 Seconds -Walk Together, Rock Together


#136 Derwent

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:07 PM

You have to come up with something to even suggest that they are related other than assertion and bias.

It's just more post hoc reasoning, there are many other plausible reasons for the decline that you ignore because you want to.


There are probably a whole multitude of reasons, I'm only putting forward one of them.

If you want evidence, albeit anecdotal, then search this board for the threads that appear after every low challenge cup or play offs attendance. Time and again the reason is given that those games are not part of people's SL season tickets so they don't go. That suggests to me that people are unwilling to pay to watch them and that is the crux of the matter. Why are they happy to pay to watch RL in one guise but not in another ? Why does Leeds v Wigan get a big crowd in SL but a poor one in the cup ? It's because people's priorities have changed and SL is now 'the game' to many people including those at Sky.
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#137 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 10:34 PM

There are probably a whole multitude of reasons, I'm only putting forward one of them.

If you want evidence, albeit anecdotal, then search this board for the threads that appear after every low challenge cup or play offs attendance. Time and again the reason is given that those games are not part of people's SL season tickets so they don't go. That suggests to me that people are unwilling to pay to watch them and that is the crux of the matter. Why are they happy to pay to watch RL in one guise but not in another ? Why does Leeds v Wigan get a big crowd in SL but a poor one in the cup ? It's because people's priorities have changed and SL is now 'the game' to many people including those at Sky.

Or that the Challenge Cup is becoming stale and needs repackaging or needs a serious facelift?

The only thing in RL that is pushed at the moment is the SL. Everything else is a sideshow. That isn't because of the SL. It's because the RFL aren't trying to push anything else. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The issues aren't being owned up to and addressed within the sport. They're just being ignored and spun.
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#138 Derwent

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 09:19 AM

Or that the Challenge Cup is becoming stale and needs repackaging or needs a serious facelift?

The only thing in RL that is pushed at the moment is the SL. Everything else is a sideshow. That isn't because of the SL. It's because the RFL aren't trying to push anything else. It doesn't have to be one or the other. The issues aren't being owned up to and addressed within the sport. They're just being ignored and spun.


I agree entirely, and despite MD's suggestion that I was blaming SL, I do not think it is the fault of SL. As you say, SL is the only thing that gets pushed and especially so with Sky, which you'd expect. In many respects "Super League" has overtaken "Rugby League" - watch any of the Sky output including BnA and Backchat and you will rarely here the phrase Rugby League used these days. To many people, SL has become the de facto name of the sport - they are going to watch Super League not Rugby League.
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#139 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 12:24 PM

I agree entirely, and despite MD's suggestion that I was blaming SL, I do not think it is the fault of SL. As you say, SL is the only thing that gets pushed and especially so with Sky, which you'd expect. In many respects "Super League" has overtaken "Rugby League" - watch any of the Sky output including BnA and Backchat and you will rarely here the phrase Rugby League used these days. To many people, SL has become the de facto name of the sport - they are going to watch Super League not Rugby League.

Not to mention Soccer AM calling it the Super League World Cup! Urgh!
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#140 jpmc

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:53 PM

Its not pointless Wellsy, apathy in RL is a major issue. Call it what you want its still apathy.
Its not comparable with me because I believe in supporting the things I believe in and not asking why I should do so. I do this because its how I am. If I'm out of step with the rest of RL then so be it.
It still doesn't explain the historical attendances though does it?

Some sports are very forturnate that they have long standing local and international scenes such as rugby union,cricket and football some sports arent quite so fortunate like rugby league.Honestly if you stopped trying to kill off Rugby league in lancs,yorks and cumbria you might find you have a pretty strong sport




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