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Lobby gobbling hypocrites


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#21 steve wild

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:37 PM

The very concept of SL has created disenfranchised clubs in meaningless competitions on its outside, and led inevitably to the economic situation which has necessitated the creation of these "partnerships". It is the relentless begining of the end if your team happens to be on the outside of SL. If fans are comfortable with the realities of forever being on the outside they will continue to support their club. If not, one by one they will continue to drop off, thus proving to SL minds that no club currently on the outside is worthy of elevation. A catch 22. I won't stop supporting the Lions, but I fear for the future.

#22 class of 63

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:50 PM

The personal condition is the same.

Trevor Barton is not a "mate" but it is true that I would have greater faith in Trevor Barton to protect the identity and integrity of Leigh Centurions than I would his present counterparts at the Lions. That said it comes down to the track record of actions rather than words.

If his actions re; partnering leave me with the impression Leigh is being morphed into Wigan reserves, that doesn't appeal to me.

I wasn't fully comfortable with the basic Dual Registration concept last season, but with the limit of 4 sourced from various other clubs it didn't feel as though the fundamental identity of the side was being changed.

This year the Swinton side has become 50% Warrington players. Training has transferred to Padgate. Established Warrington first teamers have been allowed to play for Swinton Lions as an exercise in match fitness. Steve McCormack's resigned and his replacement is a Warrington man to the core. And most important of all - still no tangible progress with Agecroft and no evident plan of how any of this helps develop Swinton Lions in its own right.

If that lot isn't enough to make someone think twice, what would be? The end result for me has been that watching the team just doesn't feel the same.

As things stand John and Paul Kidd have taken the partnership concept considerably further than any other club. They have gone to the limit of the rules and then found a way to push beyond those rules. There are some important differences in the way and extent to which different clubs have adopted partnering.

I hate the entire concept though. Perhaps I've reached the end of watching RL altogether. It seems to be losing sight of the reasons why I enjoyed being involved with it.


Phil - Correct me if I am wrong but haven't John and Paul applied DR within the rules, even though you may not agree with how it has been applied

#23 PhillH

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:25 PM

Phil - Correct me if I am wrong but haven't John and Paul applied DR within the rules, even though you may not agree with how it has been applied


In my view the registering of 6 players initially on Dual Registration only to then be signed on 12 month deals was a cynical work around designed to maximise the number of Warrington players that could be fielded for Swinton Lions.

Consequently the team in recent weeks has featured 8 or 9 Warrington players out of the 17.

This is what I mean by pushing beyond the rules.
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#24 TIM THE LION

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:53 PM

But they aren't pushing beyond the rules, those Warrington players are now Swinton players just as much as Armstrong and Higson were last season. But once again that doesn't fit your argument so you choose to exclude that fact.

Edited by TIM THE LION, 23 March 2013 - 03:56 PM.

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#25 PhillH

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 03:58 PM

Thats really the same argument as before
The point being here that leigh and yourself were dead against dual reg
Now its ok conditionally?


Why shouldn't it be the same argument as before? Its the same issue being discussed. If I were to have said anything different, you'd straight away accuse me of being inconsistent. If you ask the same question, why should it be a shock to get the same answer?

To the best of my knowledge, no Leigh Centurions official has ever said that club was "dead against dual reg". Leigh Centurions have used several players in that way in recent years. The accord they signed with Featherstone, Sheffield and Halifax didn't condemn Dual Registration out of hand - it was an attempt to set out some basic rules to protect the integrity of the Championship as a competition and to try and prevent clubs becoming feeder teams.

On a personal level I have never been totally comfortable with the concept of Dual Registration. However I have followed Swinton Lions when they had Warren Thompson in 2011 then stepped things up in 2012. Although I was always wary of Dual Registration and the impact it might have, in the event it was applied (with Adam Walker, Scott Hale, Glenn Riley and Carl Forster) in a way that didn't threaten the fundamental identity of the side. Reasons being; there was a limit of 4; the players came to Swinton Lions from a variety of other clubs; the players concerned were young emerging talent; the players were available to Swinton all season (subject to injury). On an odd occasion Forster was recalled by Saints and when that happened it didn't sit very comfortably, but overall the way I felt about watching the team didn't change too much.

So - while I've never liked Dual Registration as a concept, and my ideal solution would be to get rid of it altogether, when it was done *within limits* I tolerated it.

However this season its been taken a lot further, with this new concept of Partnering. Partnering is another level up. Its Dual Registration and some. I went to the pre-season friendlies, only to find that the way I felt about watching the side had changed. To me this was becoming a Warrington reserve side, running out in Swinton Lions shirts. That didn't happen in 2012 despite there being at times 4 Dual Registered players in the side. The feeling also came from knowing about other things that were going on - such as training being moved to Padgate.

I guess I have a threshold level and in 2012 it wasn't crossed, but in 2013 it has been. It remains to be seen whether Leigh's version with Wigan is above or below that same threshold! I'd rather no clubs at all were drawn into Partnership though.
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#26 Bryce

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:00 PM

...Or the 9 (or something near that) former Leigh players that we had last year.

Would the 6 or 7 Wire players that have signed for us this year be considered 100% Swinton players if they are here next season, or the season after...or in 10 years time? If not, then people won't be happy until we have a proper youth set up and are producing players of our own (which we should have IMO, if we had the cash!).

Mr Wild is right IMO, there's nothing to play for below SL without P/R.

#27 PhillH

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:01 PM

But they aren't pushing beyond the rules, those Warrington players are now Swinton players just as much as Armstrong and Higson were last season. But once again that doesn't fit your argument so you choose to exclude that fact.


I don't agree that these 6 players are true Swinton players. To my way of thinking, they are still first and foremost Warrington players. It isn't about making an argument, its just how I feel about it.
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#28 mark richardson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

The resson it shouldn't be the same argument again is because thats been done
The argument here is that leigh are now doing dual reg and you are ok with their version of dual reg until it doesn't suit.
Well their version of dusl reg is the same as ours because however it is implemented it is the same act in principle
And that is what I find amusing about leighs stance and the stance of some of the abusive leigh fans on here
You are either for dual reg or against it

Make your mind up time,


#29 PhillH

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:46 PM

The resson it shouldn't be the same argument again is because thats been done
The argument here is that leigh are now doing dual reg and you are ok with their version of dual reg until it doesn't suit.
Well their version of dusl reg is the same as ours because however it is implemented it is the same act in principle
And that is what I find amusing about leighs stance and the stance of some of the abusive leigh fans on here
You are either for dual reg or against it

Make your mind up time,


Although its been done some of the points haven't sunk in. So all I can do is repeat them, in the hope the penny might drop.

Leigh Centurions have been using players on a Dual Registration basis for a few years, that's nothing new.

I am against Dual Registration and would prefer the RFL got rid of it.

I am against Partnering and would prefer the RFL got rid of it.

Partnering is a different concept to Dual Registration and has higher risks than Dual Registration.

I was gutted when Ian Talbot got the Hornets coaching job while still being on the payroll at Saints. I thought it was ludicrous when Widnes registered their entire squad to be Dual Registered with Workington. To me its a very badly thought out concept.

The reasons I am against Partnering are; I believe it can undermine the identity of Championship clubs by turning them into nothing more than feeder sides; the associated changes to the SL academy set up have reduced the opportunities for young players; its driving force is for SL clubs to save money; its unfair to part time players, and; it is bad for the integrity and credibility of the Championship.

Where these risks haven't been protected against, they have been realised and the result it that its changed the way I feel about the game. Swinton Lions inparticular. Perhaps this agreement between Leigh and Wigan will make me feel the same way about Leigh too. Time will tell.
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#30 mark richardson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 04:51 PM

I knew it was just me not getting it!
Every single time. Silly old me .

So just to clarify are you lambasting big Trev on RL fans and are you withdrawing your support of leigh too?

Or are you sort of ok with leigh doing exactly the same as us until too many of the players come from too far west of West Leigh?

Has the penny dropped?

#31 class of 63

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:14 PM

In my view the registering of 6 players initially on Dual Registration only to then be signed on 12 month deals was a cynical work around designed to maximise the number of Warrington players that could be fielded for Swinton Lions.

Consequently the team in recent weeks has featured 8 or 9 Warrington players out of the 17.

This is what I mean by pushing beyond the rules.

Thanks for your response Phil, obviously we cannot agree on your terminology, IMO we have done everything within the rules and we have not included 8 or 9 Warrington players that would be breaking the rules.

#32 Barnie

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 05:21 PM

Thats the difference between a true fan and and someone who just tips up to watch a game. my love for Swinton is unconditional. I'll follow them anywhere in any guise. i really dont have much time for people who put conditions on love.

Edited by Barnie, 23 March 2013 - 05:26 PM.

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#33 steve wild

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:03 PM

The point I was making is that the structure of the RFL in itself has led directly (amongst many things) to dual reg & partnerships. The economic levers from both a SL perspective and a Championship perspective are plain to see. We probably have to put up with it and accept the continuing lack of credibility of the Championship or find something else to do on a Sunday!

#34 PhillH

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:12 PM

I knew it was just me not getting it!
Every single time. Silly old me .

So just to clarify are you lambasting big Trev on RL fans and are you withdrawing your support of leigh too?

Or are you sort of ok with leigh doing exactly the same as us until too many of the players come from too far west of West Leigh?

Has the penny dropped?


Yes, silly old you. Amen.

If this agreement between Leigh and Wigan is implemented in such a way that it undermines the identity and integrity of Leigh Centurions, the people that have brought it about will deserve to be strongly criticised. Thanks for the concern that I am someone that doesn't speak his mind.

As I have already stated quite a few times, if it gets to the point where it feels to me that Leigh Centurions has embarked on becoming Wigan's feeder club, Leigh won't be getting any more of my support. For no other reason that I cannot feel any enthusiasm for supporting a feeder club.

Leigh at this moment in time in my opinion are not "doing exactly the same" as Swinton Lions. The leaders of Swinton Lions have jumped on the opportunity of a partnership with Warrington as though they were a squirrel that's just discovered the last hazelnut on earth. At Leigh the approach has been far more guarded.

Hopefully the key players at Leigh are savvy to the risks associated with taking this step, because there are some very big risks. We will see what transpires.


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#35 mark richardson

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:21 PM

You're a jolly lucky lad having a choice of clubs to keep you "happy."

The approach from leigh has been incredibly guarded in the whole 48 hours that have passed since its announcement.
Whether that will remain so is very doubtful

As it is there is nothing to wait for as far as hypotheticals go. They are a dual reg club and the difference with what we are doing is zero.

#36 PhillH

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:28 PM

Thats the difference between a true fan and and someone who just tips up to watch a game. my love for Swinton is unconditional. I'll follow them anywhere in any guise. i really dont have much time for people who put conditions on love.


If the club had gone through with the relocation to Darwen and become East Lancashire Lions, would you have continued giving it backing?
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#37 Barnie

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:34 PM

If the club had gone through with the relocation to Darwen and become East Lancashire Lions, would you have continued giving it backing?


if my sister had a penis she'd be my brother. however, she hasn't so she isn't.
Dont worry, it will soon be Christmas!

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#38 TIM THE LION

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:01 PM

I don't agree that these 6 players are true Swinton players. To my way of thinking, they are still first and foremost Warrington players. It isn't about making an argument, its just how I feel about it.

But why aren't they Lions, they have signed a contract just the same as all the other players in the team what makes them different, if someone offered me 6 or 7 Leigh players or 6 or 7 Wire players I know which I'd choose. Are you truly suggesting we should take the moral high ground not go down the d/r track and get relegated with the future of the club hinging on that fact. Please give me a break. I hope you wouldn't suggest that any Wire first teamers that we field would hold back and not give their all because not only would that be highly dangerous it would call into disrepute their charachter. If that is so then you need to attend games and watch them instead of criticising from afar.

Edited by TIM THE LION, 23 March 2013 - 11:08 PM.

Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could only do a little.

 

Edmund Burke


#39 Barnie

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:15 PM

But why aren't they Lions, they have signed a contract just the same as all the other players in the team what makes them different


The fact that Phil says so. after all he knows everything.
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#40 LOYALION

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Posted 24 March 2013 - 08:56 AM

Wigan Warriors Rugby General Manager, Kris Radlinski said; “I see this as a real chance for both clubs to work together for the benefit of rugby league across the Borough of Wigan, as a Club we can benefit in a number of ways which includes the opportunity for some of our players to gain vital first team football at Championship level. For Leigh this provides an enhanced squad for them to choose from with up to 5 players at any one time available via the dual registration or through the loan system format. Leigh has a great position within the game and both parties are keen to ensure each Club still retains its individual structures and identity.”

"Across the borough of Wigan"? Hmmm!

"Or through the loan system"? No age limit in the loan system that I know of!

Maybe time to get your fedora cleaned for the cricket season Phil?

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